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Adam Grenier (Uber, MasterClass)15 September 2022

When and how to invest in new acquisition channels

4Frameworks
15Insights

Episode overview

Adam Grenier presents a three-part framework for evaluating emerging acquisition channels: match channel strengths to customer and company needs, study the channel’s DNA, and assess the company’s own capabilities and risk tolerance. He explains why a growth CMO should combine marketing fundamentals with product-style iteration, measurement, and experimentation. The conversation also distinguishes burnout from depression and discusses therapy, trusted relationships, meditation, exercise, and diet as useful supports.

Key ideas

  • Evaluate an emerging channel by the overlap between customer needs, company goals, and the channel’s distinctive strengths.
  • Study a channel’s maturity, likelihood of product changes, and monetization model before committing significant resources.
  • Consider the company’s risk appetite, staffing, and existing channel mix; emerging channels usually should not replace foundational acquisition work.
  • Start emerging-channel tests with limited resources, define directional success metrics beforehand, and reconsider efforts that show no improvement within a quarter.
  • Growth CMOs apply data, agile iteration, and experimentation across brand, funnels, and product rather than treating marketing as a separate silo.
  • A market shift can invalidate prior product-market fit, so teams should reassess customers and positioning before assuming a new channel will restore growth.
  • Burnout often appears as reduced adaptability and resistance to new approaches, while depression affects motivation and enjoyment beyond work.
  • Therapy, candid conversations with trusted people, meditation, exercise, and diet can help identify and manage mental-health challenges.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Self-Mastery3 steps

Burnout vs Depression Self-Diagnosis

Tell exhaustion apart from depression by checking whether the flatness spreads beyond work.

Read →
Marketing3 steps

Sizing and Time-Boxing a Channel Experiment

How much team and time to commit to a new channel, and what signal to look for before killing it.

Read →
Marketing4 steps

The Growth CMO Operating Model

Run marketing like agile product development — data-driven, iterative, and married to product.

Read →
Marketing3 steps

Three-Ingredient Emerging Channel Evaluation Framework

Decide whether a hot new acquisition channel is worth your time using three lenses before you invest.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 5

  • Adam GrenierMentionsAdam was head of growth marketing and Innovation at Uber where he basically built their growth marketing infrastructure and the team from the ground up

    “today my guest is Adam grineer Adam was head of growth marketing and Innovation at Uber”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    “welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Adam GrenierMentionsAdam was head of growth marketing and Innovation at Uber where he basically built their growth marketing infrastructure and the team from the ground up

    “most recently he was VP of marketing at masterclass these days Adam advises companies large and small on growth and marketing strategy”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • John CutlerMentionsI talked to John Cuddler actually and he gave me this framework that is like completely stuck in my mind

    “I'm excited to chat with my friend John Cutler from podcast sponsor amplitude”

    ▶ Watch at ~34:00approx.
  • Sam HarrisMentionsSam Harris talks about this a lot that it feels like once you get close then it could just accelerate so quickly

    “Sam Harris yeah waking up right where it's like oh I'm actually learning about meditation not just learning how to meditate”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:03:00approx.

Resources · 34

  • Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • UberMentionscompany · Uber

    “Adam was head of growth marketing and Innovation at Uber where he basically built their growth marketing infrastructure and the team from the ground up”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Lambda SchoolMentionscompany

    “then he went on to VP of product and marketing at Lambda school”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • MasterClassMentionscompany

    “most recently he was VP of marketing at masterclass”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • WhimsicalRecommendssoftware · Whimsical

    “see why product teams at leading companies call Whimsical a game changer visit whimsical.com Lenny”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • CodaUsessoftware · Coda

    “I actually use Coda every single day it's my home base for organizing my newsletter writing”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
  • iO TheaterUsescompany

    “I lived in Chicago did Second City improv Olympic a variety of different places did quite a bit of Performing”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
  • Second CityUsescompany

    “I lived in Chicago did Second City improv Olympic a variety of different places did quite a bit of Performing”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
  • AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk

    “actually at Airbnb we had an improv teacher come and work with the PM team”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • ALFMentionstv show

    “oh is that an Alf episode oh I haven't seen elf since I was a kid”

    ▶ Watch at ~8:30approx.
  • SpotifyMentionssoftware · Spotify

    “the example I've used in the past is you know Spotify in the moment of like things like Clubhouse and Paparazzi”

    ▶ Watch at ~15:00approx.
  • PoparazziMentionssoftware

    “versus like Paparazzi as like very photo driven and like nothing really to do with music”

    ▶ Watch at ~16:00approx.
  • ClubhouseMentionssoftware · Alpha Exploration Co.

    “Clubhouse is actually a perfect example because in a weird way so Clubhouse got hot before Facebook got cold”

    ▶ Watch at ~19:00approx.
  • ZooskUsescompany

    “Facebook early company I was at Zoosk and so like Zoosk and companies like Zynga got tons of their early growth”

    ▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
  • FacebookMentionscompany · Meta

    “Zoosk and companies like Zynga got tons of their early growth because of notifications on Facebook”

    ▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
  • ZyngaMentionscompany · Mark Pincus

    “Zoosk and companies like Zynga got tons of their early growth because of notifications on Facebook”

    ▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
  • HotelTonightUsescompany

    “when Facebook started exploring mobile ads hotel tonight we were one of the like Alpha testers of of mobile ads”

    ▶ Watch at ~21:30approx.
  • GoogleMentionscompany · Google

    “before you've figured out some type of like volume on Google and Facebook”

    ▶ Watch at ~25:00approx.
  • TikTokRecommendssoftware · ByteDance

    “I think Tick Tock is actually hyper interesting and everyone should be doing that”

    ▶ Watch at ~32:30approx.
  • AmplitudeMentionssoftware · Amplitude

    “we've always thought of amplitude as being about supporting the full product Loop”

    ▶ Watch at ~34:00approx.
  • AmplitudeRecommendssoftware · Amplitude

    “head to amplitude.com to get started”

    ▶ Watch at ~34:30approx.
  • GRINUsessoftware

    “we were using grin at a master class we onboarded them”

    ▶ Watch at ~37:00approx.
  • Crossing the ChasmRecommendsbook · Geoffrey Moore

    “I think the book cross the chasm is like a great place to start”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:00approx.
  • Coca-ColaMentionscompany

    “Coca-Cola invented the coupon like the first known coupon was Coca-Cola giving away Coke for free”

    ▶ Watch at ~48:30approx.
  • Hacking MarketingRecommendsbook · Scott Brinker

    “there's actually a a book called hacking marketing I think I'll I'll confirm that”

    ▶ Watch at ~50:00approx.
  • ReforgeRecommendscompany · Brian Balfour

    “every Forge has some classes on it there's a bunch of new product-led growth classes out in the wild”

    ▶ Watch at ~50:30approx.
  • MavenRecommendswebsite · Maven

    “Maven I think has a couple and yeah there's a variety of those types of things”

    ▶ Watch at ~50:30approx.
  • Sun MicrosystemsUsescompany

    “my first client ever was on Microsystems like early 2000s getting Java developers to make apps for flipped phones”

    ▶ Watch at ~53:30approx.
  • Waking UpUsessoftware · Sam Harris

    “going through that program of waking up was the first time I actually like really appreciated when and how and where to do it”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:03:30approx.
  • AuraUsessoftware

    “I now use uh I'm an investor so I'm biased but Aura a-u-r-a”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:03:30approx.
  • Why Buddhism Is TrueRecommendsbook · Robert Wright

    “there's this amazing book that kind of does exactly what you also describe where it teaches you why this works”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
  • Why Buddhism Is TrueMentionsbook · Robert Wright

    “it's called why Buddhism is true”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
  • Andreessen Horowitz Scout FundMentionscompany

    “I've recently joined andreessen's Scout funds from doing a bit more volume now”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:08:00approx.
  • Lenny's PodcastMentionspodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:09:30approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take00:00

When the Market Changes, Assume You Lost Product-Market Fit

Adam's top advice for adjusting marketing during economic shifts is counterintuitive: assume you no longer have product-market fit. You found PMF in a different market, and the market has changed, so the whole customer base has shifted, not just the next slice of customers you were chasing. Often you'll be close and only need small adjustments, but starting from that assumption stops you from misdiagnosing the problem as needing a new channel.

  • PMF is relative to a specific market; when the market changes, PMF may no longer hold.
  • The entire customer base changes, not just the next 10% of customers you're targeting.
  • Reaching for a new acquisition channel to fix a market shift is usually the wrong move.
  • Best case: you're close to PMF and only need to adjust a couple of things.

“start by assuming you no longer have product Market fit because you had product Market fit in a different Market it's a different market now…”

Adam Grenier · 00:00
#product-market-fit#marketing#strategy#growth
Hot Take33:00

Podcast Ads Work Like Radio, Not Direct Response

Adam pushes back on treating podcast ads like Facebook or direct-response ads that demand immediate clicks. What he keeps seeing work is treating them like radio: getting on the right program, making the ad personal and native to that show, and repeating it over and over. He also notes podcasts are hard to scale and better suited to B2B, where each customer is far more valuable so you don't need consumer-scale volume.

  • Don't treat podcast ads like direct-response; treat them like radio.
  • Effective podcast advertising = right program, personal and native feel, plus heavy repetition.
  • Podcast ads are hard to scale to Google/Facebook-level volumes.
  • B2B is a stronger fit for podcasting because each customer is substantially more valuable.

“what I keep seeing as the effective like strategy with podcast ads is treating it more like radio where it's more about getting on the…”

Adam Grenier · 33:30
#podcast-ads#acquisition-channels#b2b#advertising

Explainer· 4

Explainer29:00

Define What Success Looks Like Before You Test a Channel

Adam stresses defining your success metric up front, because emerging channels rarely give you clean click data. On Clubhouse, for example, you won't see clicks - success looks like growing a room's size by 10 people each time you run it. If attendance drops from 20 to 15, either you're doing it badly, the channel isn't working, or there isn't enough reach. A channel like TikTok, by contrast, lets you track clicks and conversions like any other.

  • Emerging channels often don't produce clicks, so define your success signal before testing.
  • On Clubhouse, success = growing a room by 10 people each session; shrinking rooms signal a problem or a reach ceiling.
  • The metric tells you if you're getting better and whether more reach is available.
  • Some channels (TikTok) let you track clicks and conversions like a standard channel.

“something like Clubhouse I'm probably not going to see clicks right it's it's more about like okay are we able to start a room and…”

Adam Grenier · 29:30
#experimentation#metrics#acquisition-channels#growth
Explainer38:00

Your Early Adopters Are Drastically Different From Your Broad Market

Building on Crossing the Chasm, Adam's most-repeated observation with companies is that early adopters are drastically different from the broad audience, and teams don't map what they'd need to see to trust that PMF extends beyond them. The biggest red flag he sees, including as an investor, is companies claiming product-market fit while using TAM and PMF as if they were the same definition. Companies routinely underestimate how hard it is to grow past the early-adopter crowd.

  • Early adopters are often drastically different from the broad audience.
  • Teams should map what they need to see to trust PMF holds beyond early adopters.
  • A major red flag: claiming PMF while conflating TAM and product-market fit.
  • Clubhouse may have leaned into the broad audience faster than it should have.

“those early adapters are actually like or adopters are are often just drastically different than the the broad audience”

Adam Grenier · 38:30
#product-market-fit#growth#early-adopters#crossing-the-chasm
Explainer41:30

What a 'Growth CMO' Is - Product and Marketing Married at the Hip

Adam coins the 'growth CMO' after watching world-class traditional CMOs fail to fit product-led companies. The core difference is treating everything - even brand - as fast, iterative, data-driven experimentation rather than one-off campaigns, and refusing to silo product from marketing. He argues the old four Ps are outdated: product is no longer a piece of marketing but one and the same thing, and companies that keep them separate lose enormous opportunity.

  • Traditional world-class CMOs often don't fit or last at product-led companies.
  • A growth CMO applies fast, data-driven iteration even to brand, not just campaigns.
  • Product and marketing should be married at the hip, not separate silos.
  • The traditional four Ps model, rooted in the 1920s-1950s, no longer describes product-led companies.

“product is no longer a part of marketing but it's actually like they're married at the hip it's actually they're all they're one in the…”

Adam Grenier · 46:30
#growth-cmo#marketing#leadership#product-led-growth
Explainer1:05:30

How to Tell Burnout From Just Being Tired

Adam distinguishes exhaustion from depression by how far it bleeds beyond work: when merely exhausted, he'll still enjoy an improv class; when depressed, he cancels it or leaves immediately, losing the community he loves. The clearest burnout signal in others is a fast drop in adaptability - shifting from 'let's give it a shot' to 'why are we wasting our time.' Since people in high-growth roles usually want harder, more interesting work, seeking to minimize the challenge flags burnout over simple tiredness.

  • Depression bleeds beyond work motivation into broader life; exhaustion doesn't.
  • When exhausted he still enjoys improv; when depressed he cancels or leaves early.
  • The top burnout signal in others: adaptability drops fast.
  • Wanting to minimize challenge signals burnout, since these roles usually attract people who want harder work; exhausted people get re-motivated by new opportunities.

“the one that I see the most is is a like adaptability goes down really fast”

Adam Grenier · 1:05:30
#burnout#mental-health#leadership#self-awareness

Story· 3

Story09:30

How Improv's 'Yes And' Defuses Cross-Functional Conflict

Adam applies the improv rule of 'yes and' to cross-functional work, using Uber's central-vs-city-team dynamics as an example. When a central team and a local team scope the same problem differently, both framings are often simultaneously true. Accepting that both can be right builds rapport and better solutions, whereas dismissing the other side kills progress and relationships.

  • At Uber, central and local City teams frequently scoped problems in ways that felt at odds.
  • 'Yes and' means accepting that both perspectives can be true at once.
  • A local system problem can matter to one team and not the other, and that's okay.
  • Denying the other side's framing kills the 'scene' - it stops progress and damages relationships.

“that type of energy when cross-functional work like it just kills the scene right it kills that progress”

Adam Grenier · 10:30
#collaboration#improv#leadership#teamwork
Story21:00

Matching a Channel's Monetization Goals Buys You Access

Adam argues that understanding how a new channel makes money, and supporting that strategy, gives you an outsized advantage with it. His example: as an early alpha tester of Facebook mobile install ads at Hotel Tonight, he pitched himself as the perfect non-gaming case study, because Facebook needed to prove ads worked for travel and leisure, not just games. Aligning with the platform's monetization goal earned him custom access others couldn't get.

  • Supporting a channel's monetization strategy makes them more willing to do custom work and partner with you.
  • Hotel Tonight was an alpha tester of Facebook mobile install ads after years of buying mobile inventory on ad networks.
  • Facebook's goal was to make ads work beyond gaming - across travel, leisure and other major categories.
  • Positioning as a valuable non-gaming case study turned a Behemoth platform into an eager partner.

“match or support their monetization strategy it actually gives you like a really interesting leg up with that channel”

Adam Grenier · 21:30
#acquisition-channels#partnerships#facebook-ads#growth
Story56:00

What Felt Like Burnout Was Actually a Deeper Problem

Adam went to therapy at Uber assuming he just needed tools for working too hard, and uncovered something different. As the youngest child who took a divergent path, he craved recognition - and was getting it at work but nowhere else, so overwork was a solution to a real problem, not the problem itself. That reframe let him stop judging himself and instead work smarter: more on things he impacts, more with people who respect his work.

  • He entered therapy assuming the issue was simply working too hard.
  • As the youngest child on a different path, he long craved recognition and got it only at work.
  • Overwork was a solution to a deeper unmet need, not the core problem.
  • The insight let him work smarter - focus on high-impact work and people who respect it.

“this thing that I'm like this is my problem was actually like a solution to my real problem”

Adam Grenier · 57:30
#mental-health#burnout#therapy#self-awareness

Q&A· 2

Q&A30:30

Which Emerging Platforms Are Actually Worth Watching

Asked which platforms are interesting to experiment with, Adam names OTT (streaming video ads) as far more trackable than traditional TV with the same long-form storytelling value. He's most intrigued by influencer marketing for its hyper-granular targeting - reminiscent of early Facebook - though it's still tedious and manual. He flags VR as interesting the way mobile was pre-iPhone 3, and considers TikTok already 'across the chasm' with a formal ad platform.

  • OTT is way more trackable than traditional TV but keeps long-form, non-skippable storytelling.
  • Influencer is his top pick for hyper-granular targeting, like early Facebook - but tedious and manual.
  • There's a big opportunity for entrepreneurs building tooling around influencer marketing.
  • VR is interesting like mobile pre-iPhone 3; TikTok is already across the chasm with a real ad platform.

“influencer is probably the one that I'm most intrigued by because similar to Ott like the the scale and services and the ability to go…”

Adam Grenier · 31:00
#acquisition-channels#influencer-marketing#ott#tiktok
Q&A51:30

The Two Hiring Signals for a Growth Marketing Leader

Asked what flags predict a marketing leader won't adapt, Adam names two signals for Series C or below: comfort with chaos, and willingness to do hands-on work they haven't done in 15 years. Startup pace and unpredictability jar people from traditional environments. He also runs founders through mapping a candidate's 'T-shaped' career - their deep strength and how they make up for weaker areas - citing his own goal of learning how bad he was at PR so he'd know to hire and defer to an expert.

  • Two signals for C-stage-or-below hires: comfort with chaos and willingness to do work they haven't done in 15 years.
  • Startup pace, unpredictability and constant change jar people from traditional marketing environments.
  • Every marketer has a T-shaped career - map their deep strength and how they cover the gaps.
  • Know how bad you are at a weak area (the Dunning-Kruger valley) so you hire the right person and listen to them.

“comfortable with chaos and willingness to go do something they have not done for probably 15 years are like two huge signals for me”

Adam Grenier · 52:00
#hiring#growth-cmo#leadership#marketing

Tool· 2

Tool50:00

Marketing Leaders Should Go Learn Agile Product Development

For marketers who want to evolve into a growth CMO, Adam's concrete advice is to learn agile product development - how to run sprints and product processes. He recommends the book Hacking Marketing, which applies agile to running a marketing team, plus classes from Reforge and Maven. You don't need to become a product manager; understanding the systems makes you think differently about marketing and dramatically better at working with product.

  • Learn agile product development - sprints and product processes - to become a growth CMO.
  • Read Hacking Marketing: how to run a marketing team on agile.
  • Reforge and Maven offer relevant product-led growth classes.
  • You don't need to become a PM; the systems knowledge improves how you run marketing and collaborate with product.

“go learn agile product development and there's there's actually a a book called hacking marketing”

Adam Grenier · 50:00
#growth-cmo#agile#learning#books
Tool1:03:00

Where to Find Mental Health Support - Including Your Own Benefits

Beyond therapy and opening up to a partner and friends, Adam recommends practical resources. He was surprised how much mental health support - finding and paying for a therapist - is covered by company benefits and health providers, and found his own therapist through an Uber service. He points to meditation, Sam Harris's Waking Up app for learning why meditation works, the Aura marketplace app, and eating/exercise as clean personal signals; Lenny adds the book Why Buddhism Is True.

  • Check your company benefits and health provider - therapist access is often covered.
  • Meditation helps; Sam Harris's Waking Up teaches why it works, not just how.
  • Aura is a marketplace meditation app Adam uses as needed (he's an investor).
  • Snacking, eating and exercise are clean personal signals; Lenny recommends the book Why Buddhism Is True.

“I would suggest like go look through your your benefits your your health care provider offers a lot of that stuff too”

Adam Grenier · 1:04:30
#mental-health#meditation#tools#benefits

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway27:30

Don't Let a New-Channel Test Bleed Past a Quarter

On how long to test an emerging channel, Adam's rule of thumb is not to let anything run past a quarter, with useful directional signal often visible in a month or less. He frames early exploration as 'fishing' - figuring out where the fish are, not chasing statistical significance. Upfront investment shifts the timing: a $20K, three-week video production deserves more runway than text ads he can drop into podcasts himself at midnight.

  • Don't let a channel test bleed past a quarter; good signal often appears in a month or less.
  • Early testing is 'fishing' - finding where the fish are, not getting statistically significant results.
  • Higher upfront production cost (e.g. a $20K, 3-week video) justifies giving a channel more time.
  • Cheap, self-serve tests (like podcast text ads) can be killed after three weeks if they don't work.

“generally like I wouldn't let anything bleed past a quarter like you can probably get some good signal in a month or less”

Adam Grenier · 27:30
#acquisition-channels#experimentation#growth#testing
Takeaway35:00

Brand-New Channels Rarely Pay Off - Maybe 5% of the Time

Adam estimates a genuinely new channel works maybe 5% of the time, though when it hits it can be a game changer. He distinguishes two flavors of 'emerging': channels that have existed forever and are finally scalable (podcasting), and existing channels introducing something brand new (early Facebook mobile install ads, which felt emerging despite Facebook's age). Truly brand-new channels rarely justify the effort early - like Airbnb's team spending a month on an Apple TV app that went nowhere.

  • A brand-new channel works roughly 5% of the time, but the payoff can be game-changing.
  • Two types of 'emerging': long-existing channels finally scaling, and existing channels adding something new.
  • Early Facebook mobile install ads felt emerging for ~18 months despite Facebook's maturity.
  • Airbnb built an Apple TV app for a month that produced 'a bunch of nothing' - but felt good to launch.

“brand spanking new channels like I like I don't know they they rarely work or are worth the effort early”

Adam Grenier · 36:00
#acquisition-channels#growth#experimentation#risk