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Ethan Smith (Graphite)01 December 2022

The ultimate guide to SEO

9Frameworks
15Insights

Episode overview

Ethan Smith explains when SEO becomes a viable growth channel, emphasizing addressable demand, non-search traffic, referring domains, and the channel's expected return relative to alternatives. He distinguishes programmatic, editorial, and technical SEO, then outlines how to choose page types, cluster keywords into topics, build topical authority, and distribute internal links. The conversation also covers staffing, tools, experimentation, implementation constraints, and the risks of publishing AI-generated content without factual grounding.

Key ideas

  • Assess SEO opportunity by combining addressable-market size with existing authority signals such as non-search traffic and referring domains.
  • Choose among programmatic, editorial, and technical SEO based on the queries, page types, expected impact, and implementation scope.
  • Treat many semantically related keywords as one topic, using overlap in Google results to decide whether they belong on the same page.
  • Reverse-engineer successful pages and competitors to form hypotheses, then validate those hypotheses with performance analysis and controlled or sequential tests.
  • Start editorial SEO with a modest batch of roughly 10–30 articles and scale only after rankings and impressions provide leading indicators.
  • Topical authority can let a focused site outrank a stronger domain for subjects closely related to what the site is already known for.
  • Internal links help Google discover and value pages; important pages should receive multiple body links and remain close to strong crawl-entry points.
  • Use AI to structure research, cluster topics, and identify content gaps, but avoid unsupported automated prose that may make factual claims without underlying knowledge.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Marketing4 steps

Editorial SEO Operating Model

Split the work: SEO manager picks topics and outlines, a domain-expert writer writes, then analyze.

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Strategy4 steps

Expected-Conversions Prioritization

Rank topics by search volume x topical authority x conversion intent, not by volume alone.

Read →
Marketing4 steps

Hypothesis-Driven SEO

Generate hypotheses by analyzing sites (and asking their SEO managers), then test to validate.

Read →
Marketing4 steps

Internal Link Spread Optimization

Most sites starve their own pages of internal links; fixing spread is SEO's biggest quick win.

Read →
Strategy4 steps

SEO Readiness Assessment

Two questions decide if SEO is worth investing in: is the market big, and do you have authority?

Read →
Marketing3 steps

SERP Reverse-Engineering

To learn what page to build, read what Google already ranks for your target keywords.

Read →
Marketing3 steps

The Three Types of SEO

Programmatic, editorial and technical SEO are different games; pick the one your queries reward.

Read →
Marketing3 steps

Topical Authority Adjacency

Rank by starting where you're already known, then expand into semantically adjacent topics.

Read →
Marketing3 steps

Topics Over Keywords

Modern Google ranks one page for a cluster of 200-2,000 keywords; target the topic, not the keyword.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 8

  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    “welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
  • Ethan SmithMentionsone of the most innovative disciplined first principles seo thinkers and i've met is ethan smith from graphite

    “today my guest is Ethan Smith”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Leo HaryonoMentionsit was Leo heriano from shopping.com eBay so he kind of gave some playbooks

    “it was Leo heriano from shopping.com eBay so he kind of gave some playbooks”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • Brandon LeeMentionsBrandon Lee who's the co-founder of this company called Power which I'm an investor in who is all about SEO

    “Brandon Lee who's the co-founder of this company called Power which I'm an investor in who is all about SEO”

    ▶ Watch at ~9:30approx.
  • Gordon RamsayMentionsthey have had a poach in a chapter for for Gordon Ramsay

    “they have had a poach in a chapter for for Gordon Ramsay”

    ▶ Watch at ~25:00approx.
  • Eli SchwartzCoinedEli is a growth adviser specializing in SEO and has helped companies like Kora coinbase Tinder LinkedIn WordPress and zapier

    “Eli Schwartz has this book about product LED SEO”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:07:00approx.
  • Gary IllyesMentionsit's with Gary Iles and John Mueller and actually give quite a bit of the information

    “it's with Gary Iles and John Mueller and actually give quite a bit of the information”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:16:00approx.
  • John MuellerMentionsit's with Gary Iles and John Mueller and actually give quite a bit of the information

    “it's with Gary Iles and John Mueller and actually give quite a bit of the information”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:16:00approx.

Resources · 41

  • Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
  • RobinhoodMentionscompany

    “Ethan has worked with companies like masterclass Thumbtack Robinhood medium and honey to develop and execute their SEO strategies”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • MasterClassMentionscompany

    “Ethan has worked with companies like masterclass Thumbtack Robinhood medium and honey to develop and execute their SEO strategies”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • ThumbtackMentionscompany

    “Ethan has worked with companies like masterclass Thumbtack Robinhood medium and honey to develop and execute their SEO strategies”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • CodaUsessoftware · Coda

    “I actually use Coda every single day it's my home base for organizing my newsletter writing”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • MixpanelMentionssoftware · Mixpanel

    “this episode is brought to you by mixpanel offering powerful self-serve product Analytics”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
  • GraphiteMentionscompany

    “you're the CEO of graphite which is one of the top growth agencies in the world”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
  • HoneyMentionscompany

    “Master Class reached out to me honey reached out to me Ticketmaster reach out to me”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • TicketmasterMentionscompany

    “Master Class reached out to me honey reached out to me Ticketmaster reach out to me”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • PowerMentionscompany

    “Brandon Lee who's the co-founder of this company called Power which I'm an investor in”

    ▶ Watch at ~9:30approx.
  • GoogleMentionscompany · Google

    “Google doesn't want you to just be an SEO site and I want you to be a credible domain before they rank you”

    ▶ Watch at ~10:30approx.
  • SemrushUsessoftware

    “I'll go into ahrefs or semrush and look at the total number of referring domains”

    ▶ Watch at ~11:00approx.
  • SimilarwebUsessoftware · Similarweb

    “I'll go into similar web I'll put the domain in I'll look at the total traffic”

    ▶ Watch at ~11:00approx.
  • InvestopediaMentionswebsite

    “Investopedia doesn't allow you to buy stocks but they have a bunch of traffic”

    ▶ Watch at ~13:30approx.
  • eBayMentionscompany · eBay

    “for eBay product pages are generated automatically from information in their database”

    ▶ Watch at ~19:00approx.
  • ZillowMentionscompany · Zillow

    “for eBay product pages are generated automatically from information in their database or for Zillow home pages address pages are generated”

    ▶ Watch at ~19:00approx.
  • GlassdoorMentionscompany · Glassdoor

    “for a site with ugc like Glassdoor that that is programmatically generated as well”

    ▶ Watch at ~19:00approx.
  • BetterUpMentionscompany

    “another example is better up which is a coaching platform”

    ▶ Watch at ~21:30approx.
  • AllrecipesMentionswebsite

    “dot dash is a conglomerate of many different Publishers like all recipes and Investopedia”

    ▶ Watch at ~22:00approx.
  • NerdWalletRecommendscompany

    “nerd wallet is one of the top editorial SEO companies and they have guides around credit cards and financial information”

    ▶ Watch at ~22:00approx.
  • HubSpotRecommendscompany · HubSpot

    “HubSpot does a really good job so they have a lot of content around productivity”

    ▶ Watch at ~22:00approx.
  • DotdashRecommendscompany

    “dot dash is a conglomerate of many different Publishers like all recipes and Investopedia and they consistently over and over again perform really well”

    ▶ Watch at ~22:00approx.
  • ChromeMentionssoftware · Google

    “Google's tracking everyone through Chrome and Android and they can actually see what happened after they left Google”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:00approx.
  • AndroidMentionssoftware · Google

    “Google's tracking everyone through Chrome and Android and they can actually see what happened after they left Google”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:00approx.
  • WebflowMentionssoftware · Webflow

    “have writers write articles and then publish them through contentful or webflow or some sort of CMS”

    ▶ Watch at ~31:30approx.
  • ContentfulMentionscompany

    “have writers write articles and then publish them through contentful or webflow or some sort of CMS”

    ▶ Watch at ~31:30approx.
  • Food NetworkMentionscompany

    “master class early on was able to outrank Food Network who has way more who had way more Authority in in food”

    ▶ Watch at ~35:00approx.
  • ClearscopeRecommendssoftware

    “my second tool is clear scope so there's a bunch of different tools for Content analysis content scoring clearscope's the best one”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:00approx.
  • AhrefsRecommendssoftware · Ahrefs Pte. Ltd.

    “ahrefs is my favorite but smrush is good”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:30approx.
  • Screaming Frog SEO SpiderUsessoftware · Screaming Frog

    “screaming frog I use it every day”

    ▶ Watch at ~40:00approx.
  • NetflixMentionscompany · Netflix

    “if a company like Netflix makes a change you'll see it the next day”

    ▶ Watch at ~40:30approx.
  • Lemon.ioMentionscompany

    “meet lemon.io lemon.io will quickly match you with skilled senior developers who are all vetted results oriented and ready to help you grow”

    ▶ Watch at ~44:00approx.
  • PinterestMentionscompany · Pinterest

    “if we're a ugc site like Pinterest it's very complicated”

    ▶ Watch at ~46:00approx.
  • Google PandaMentionssoftware · Google

    “there are domain-wide things like Google Panda or Google has a bunch of domain-wide scores and you can't split test that”

    ▶ Watch at ~52:30approx.
  • DatadogMentionscompany · Datadog

    “datadog hired an engineer and their job was to write blog posts and that was really effective for them early on”

    ▶ Watch at ~54:00approx.
  • TripadvisorMentionscompany

    “there were clear patterns that TripAdvisor consistently outperformed over and over again”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
  • Product-Led SEORecommendsbook · Eli Schwartz

    “Eli Schwartz has this book about product LED SEO which is how it should be done”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:07:00approx.
  • Google Helpful Content UpdateMentionsevent · Google

    “you'll see in the most recent Google helpful content update they talk about domain experts”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:10:00approx.
  • Search Off the RecordRecommendspodcast · Google Search Relations

    “there's a good SEO the best SEO podcast I think it's called search engine on the record or something like that”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:16:00approx.
  • UpworkUsescompany

    “we have it live on upwork and other sites seen really good lift from that”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:22:00approx.
  • GPT-3Usessoftware · OpenAI

    “we've played around with gpt3 so gpt3 is basically generating sentences that are similar to other sentences”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:25:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster07:30

The Biggest SEO Myth: Technical Audits Aren't Growth

Ethan says the most common SEO misconception is that a technical audit will grow your site. An audit just hands you a list of bugs, which is different from helping you grow. Companies over-index on technical SEO when the real growth levers are programmatic and editorial SEO.

  • A technical audit is essentially a list of bugs to fix, not a growth strategy
  • Technical SEO is mostly internal link architecture, tags, redirects and page speed
  • People over-index on technical SEO and under-invest in editorial SEO
  • Manually written editorial content is underappreciated as a growth driver

“essentially what that is is give me a list of bugs to fix which is different from help me grow”

Ethan Smith · 08:00
#seo#myths#technical-seo#editorial-seo

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take46:30

Companies Wildly Under-Resource SEO vs Ads

Ethan's strongest opinion: companies pour tens of millions into ads while spending almost nothing on SEO, even when SEO traffic could rival paid traffic. Spending $100M on ads and $50K on SEO makes no sense given the opportunity. If SEO is worth a billion dollars to you, just spend the money.

  • People under-resource SEO and over-resource ads
  • The organic traffic available is often equal to what paid buys
  • Spending $100M on ads but $50K on SEO doesn't make sense
  • If SEO is worth a billion dollars to a company, staff it properly

“so you're going to spend 100 million dollars on ads why would you spend fifty thousand dollars on SEO that doesn't make sense”

Ethan Smith · 47:00
#seo#budget#paid-ads#resourcing
Hot Take1:06:00

The Dirty Secret: Most SEO Work Never Ships

Ethan reveals that most SEO recommendations never get launched, usually due to resource constraints. SEO gets disproportionately blocked because the changes are really product changes, it sits outside the product org, it feels mysterious and unprovable, and it's a lot of work. Getting things done matters more than the strategy.

  • Most of what SEO consultants recommend never gets launched
  • SEO changes are often product changes but SEO sits outside the product org
  • Its 'mysterious' nature loses prioritization battles to more certain work
  • Executive buy-in and product-led org design are what unblock it
  • Execution is more of a success factor than the strategy itself

“the dirty secret of SEO and SEO Consulting is that most of what is recommended never gets launched”

Ethan Smith · 1:06:30
#seo#execution#org-design#prioritization
Hot Take1:24:30

Why Ethan Distrusts AI-Generated SEO Content

Ethan mostly dislikes using GPT-3 to auto-generate SEO pages because the content lacks underlying wisdom and can state confident falsehoods. His example: GPT-3 described a soap as 'oxide free' when it wasn't. AI is best used for the surrounding work (clustering keywords, finding subtopics, building outlines) while a human domain expert writes the actual content.

  • GPT-3 generates plausible sentences that can be factually wrong
  • Example: it claimed a soap was 'oxide free' when it was not
  • Dangerous for high-stakes topics like retirement or cancer treatment
  • AI works well with structured data that gives sentences real facts
  • Best AI use: clustering keywords, finding subtopics, and building outlines

“gpt3 said the soap was oxide free but it was not oxide free but gbt3 doesn't know that”

Ethan Smith · 1:25:30
#seo#ai#gpt-3#content-generation

Explainer· 5

Explainer10:00

How to Tell If SEO Is Worth It: Authority Signals

Ethan explains the two things that decide whether SEO can work: a large addressable market, and whether you already have authority. Google doesn't want to rank a site that only gets SEO traffic, so non-SEO traffic and referring domains act as credibility signals. His rough benchmarks are at least ~1,000 non-search visits a day and ~1,000 referring domains.

  • SEO multiplies existing traction; starting from zero authority is usually too early
  • Google wants a credible domain, not just an 'SEO site'
  • Rough benchmark: at least ~1,000 non-SEO visits a day
  • Rough benchmark: at least ~1,000 referring domains (check via ahrefs or semrush)
  • Non-SEO traffic (direct, paid, email, social) is itself an authority signal

“Google doesn't want you to just be an SEO site and I want you to be a credible domain before they rank you”

Ethan Smith · 10:30

“so the more traffic you have that's not from SEO that means that you're credible”

Ethan Smith · 15:00
#seo#authority#growth#metrics
Explainer18:30

The Three Types of SEO: Programmatic, Editorial, Technical

Ethan breaks SEO into three buckets. Programmatic SEO is pages auto-generated from a database (eBay products, Zillow homes, Glassdoor reviews). Editorial SEO is human-written content like articles and guides. Technical SEO is the underlying infrastructure. Editorial has overtaken programmatic as the bigger traffic driver.

  • Programmatic SEO = category pages and item pages generated from a database
  • Editorial SEO = a person writing an article, guide or listicle
  • Technical SEO = internal link architecture, tags, redirects, page speed
  • Editorial SEO now drives more traffic than programmatic, a reversal from years ago
  • Programmatic pages have no per-page cost; every editorial page has a cost

“editorial SEO is more and more actually driving more traffic than programmatic seo programmatic seo used to be almost all SEO when I started”

Ethan Smith · 19:30
#seo#programmatic-seo#editorial-seo#technical-seo
Explainer28:00

How Google Uses Engagement (Not Just Links) to Rank You

Ethan explains that engagement is a key ranking signal Google measures in two places: click-through on the search results page, and dwell time on your page. Google tracks users via Chrome and Android and wants to see that you ended their session by answering their question. Bouncing back to results is a bad signal.

  • Signal one: click-through rate on your result on google.com
  • A quick 'pogo-stick' back to Google to click a competitor is a very bad signal
  • Signal two (arguably more important): did the user stay on your page a long time
  • Google tracks post-click behavior through Chrome and Android
  • Higher engagement both protects against algorithm changes and lifts rankings immediately

“so Google's tracking everyone through Chrome and Android and they can actually see what happened after they left Google”

Ethan Smith · 29:00
#seo#ranking-signals#engagement#google
Explainer31:30

Why You Should Target Topics, Not Keywords

Ethan argues that a single page can rank for 200 to 2,000 keywords, so you should target topics rather than individual keywords. Optimizing per-keyword undercounts your true search volume, wastes money writing redundant pages, and leaves content gaps that hurt rankings. Cluster keywords by whether the same results keep appearing.

  • Any given page can typically rank for about 200 to 2,000 keywords
  • The real search volume of a topic is far larger than any single keyword's volume
  • Writing one page per keyword variation wastes large amounts of money
  • A ranking page must fulfill the intent of all the keywords in its topic
  • Cluster keywords by how much the search results overlap

“any given page is typically going to rank or be able to rank for about 200 to 2 000 different keywords”

Ethan Smith · 32:30
#seo#keywords#topics#content-strategy
Explainer40:00

How Long SEO Really Takes to Work

Ethan gives a realistic timeline: usually six to nine months, but it scales with your existing authority and traction. A brand-new company may take ~3 months to build and launch, then 3-6 months to rank. A high-authority site like Netflix or eBay can see changes in days to a few weeks.

  • Typical timeline is six to nine months, driven by your authority level
  • New sites: ~3 months to build and launch, then 3-6 months to rank and grow
  • Google tests low-competition keywords first, then expands as engagement proves out
  • Large, high-authority sites can see results in days to one-to-four weeks

“it depends but usually I'll say six to nine months but it's a function of how much Authority you have and how much existing SEO…”

Ethan Smith · 40:30
#seo#timelines#growth#expectations

Story· 2

Story34:30

How MasterClass Outranked Food Network on Butter Lettuce

Ethan tells how MasterClass, despite far less authority than Food Network, outranked it for butter lettuce. Their page covered all ~400 related keywords including themes like health benefits, while competitors had content gaps. Comprehensive coverage raised both Google's content score and user engagement.

  • The butter lettuce topic ranks for roughly 400 different keywords
  • Competitors left gaps by not covering sub-themes like health benefits
  • MasterClass outranked a higher-authority incumbent by being comprehensive
  • Users who wanted 'butter lettuce health benefits' got their answer and stayed

“part of why master class early on was able to outrank Food Network who has way more who had way more Authority in in food…”

Ethan Smith · 35:00
#seo#content-strategy#masterclass#case-study
Story1:11:00

How One Viral Jello Shots Post Lifted a Whole Domain

Ethan shares a recipe-site case where a viral jello shots blog post got four million likes and millions of pins. Beyond ranking for jello shots, the entire domain started ranking for vodka and whiskey recipes and other semantically adjacent topics, even on pages that weren't linked from the post, demonstrating domain-wide topical authority spillover.

  • '10 jello shots worth the hangover' got four million likes and millions of pins
  • The post itself ranked around number six for jello shots
  • The whole domain then ranked for vodka, whiskey and other adjacent recipes
  • Those benefiting pages weren't even linked from the viral post

“we had a viral blog post about jello shots 10 jello shots worth the hangover and um we got four million likes and millions of…”

Ethan Smith · 1:11:30

“the entire domain then started to rank for vodka recipes and Whiskey recipes and things that were semantically related to jello shots”

Ethan Smith · 1:11:30
#seo#topical-authority#case-study#viral-content

Tool· 1

Tool37:30

The SEO Tools Ethan Actually Uses

Ethan lists his core toolstack: Google Search Console (free, real traffic and free SERP tracking), Clearscope for content scoring and gap analysis, a keyword research tool like ahrefs or semrush (~$100-200/month), and Screaming Frog for crawling and internal link analysis. Graphite also builds internal tools where no product exists.

  • Google Search Console — free, gives real traffic data and SERP tracking
  • Clearscope — best content-scoring tool for finding content gaps
  • ahrefs (his favorite) or semrush for keyword research, ~$100-200/month
  • Screaming Frog — crawling, error-code audits, and internal link coverage
  • Some jobs (topic clustering, topical authority) have no tool, so Graphite built their own

“there's a bunch of different tools for Content analysis content scoring clearscope's the best one”

Ethan Smith · 38:00

“you can build an SEO strategy without without screaming frog but um but certainly useful”

Ethan Smith · 39:30
#seo#tools#software#recommendations

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway42:30

Don't Call SEO a Failure Too Early

Ethan warns against false negatives in SEO. Companies try something once, it doesn't work, and they conclude SEO won't work, when usually the strategy just wasn't implemented correctly. Watch leading indicators like ranking anywhere in the top 20 and climbing positions before scaling up.

  • Leading indicator: are you ranking at least number 20 for anything
  • Rankings that climb (15 to 12 to 8 to 5) show the strategy is working before clicks arrive
  • Wait for these signals with a small number of pages before scaling
  • The first few tries often just weren't implemented correctly, not proof SEO can't work

“it's common for the first try or for several tries in SEO to just not be implemented correctly”

Ethan Smith · 43:30
#seo#leading-indicators#iteration#growth
Takeaway1:08:30

Topical Authority Beats Total Domain Authority

Ethan calls topical authority the most important, least understood part of SEO. Instead of one total domain-authority score, Google measures what you're disproportionately known for. A site can outrank higher-authority competitors on a topic it's narrowly famous for, then expand into semantically adjacent topics.

  • Authority is topical, not just a single domain-wide score
  • Google reads anchor text, shares, and branded search to assign topical authority
  • Being disproportionately known for a topic beats higher total domain authority
  • Rank first on topics adjacent to your existing authority, then branch out

“then you have very high top bull Authority for that and you'll outrank other sites that have more total domain Authority because you're disproportionately known…”

Ethan Smith · 1:13:00
#seo#topical-authority#ranking#strategy
Takeaway1:16:30

Internal Links: SEO's Most Underrated Quick Win

Ethan says fixing internal links is the single quickest SEO win, and 90-95% of sites have this problem. Since 2007 he's seen that pages with more internal links get more traffic. Common linking algorithms (facet, popular, recent, related) leave many pages with too few links; spreading links can lift traffic 25-100%.

  • Pages with more internal links get more traffic; fewer links means less
  • Google needs multiple internal paths (roughly 10+ links) to crawl a page well
  • A sitemap is just one link and isn't enough on its own
  • Standard link algorithms (facet, popular, recent, related) leave gaps
  • Fixing link spread often yields 25%+, sometimes 100%+, traffic lift

“I found that pages with more links got more traffic fewer links got less traffic”

Ethan Smith · 1:17:30

“so this is probably anything that I can recommend to companies as the quick win”

Ethan Smith · 1:22:00
#seo#internal-links#crawling#quick-win