Pete Kazanjy (Founding Sales, Atrium)15 December 2022

Founder-led sales

8Frameworks

13Insights

Episode overview

Lenny Rachitsky interviews Pete Kazanjy about why B2B founders must personally develop a repeatable sales motion before hiring sellers. Kazanjy explains how to test that motion through small prospect cohorts, stage conversions, second meetings, win rates, and continual updates to messaging and collateral. They also cover sales mindset, ideal customer profiles, early sales hiring, ramp indicators, coaching loops, and the value of treating selling as a learnable, customer-helping discipline.

Key ideas

Founders should sell the first couple dozen customers themselves because direct conversations preserve product, positioning, and market feedback in one brain.
A sales motion is ready to delegate when arms-length prospects convert reliably—roughly a 15–25% first-meeting-to-customer win rate across 50–100 attempts.
Prospects should be tested in small cohorts so discovery questions, slides, demos, objection handling, and messaging can be updated after each learning loop.
Second and third meetings, opportunity progression, proposal creation, and activity volume are leading indicators that reveal problems earlier than closed revenue.
Effective modern selling means diagnosing a well-matched customer's costly problem and helping them evaluate an appropriate solution, not persuading poor-fit buyers.
The first sales hires should be two or three hands-on, early-stage sellers who can work with incomplete collateral; a VP of Sales usually comes later.
New sellers should be assessed continuously during ramp: onboarding and simulations first, then initial meetings, stage progression, proposals, and eventual closes.
Sales is a learnable collection of behaviors—including rapport, candid questioning, follow-up, activity discipline, asking for money, and listening after the ask.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Leadership5 steps

Hire the Deputy, Not the VP

Hire two gritty early-stage sellers from an analogous company, not a professionally rich VP.

Read →

Sales5 steps

The Consultant With a Predilection

Be a consultant who favours one solution: yours. Disqualify hard, let discovery persuade.

Read →

Leadership5 steps

The Leading-Indicator Ramp Scorecard

Judge a new seller each month on the indicator due that month, not on bookings.

Read →

Sales5 steps

The Sales Motion as Source Code

Treat the pitch like a codebase: run cohorts of 10, patch the bug the prospect found, redeploy.

Read →

Sales5 steps

The Second-Date Funnel

Win rate is a lagging indicator. Manage the meeting-to-meeting conversions like dates.

Read →

Sales6 steps

The Selling While Loop

Sell it yourself until it reliably runs on your local, then package it and ship it to other brains.

Read →

Leadership5 steps

The Written Screen Job Simulation

Send a shared doc of a dozen easy questions. Half the candidates disqualify themselves.

Read →

Communication5 steps

Turbo Rapport and Sales Scales

Sales is a set of drills, not a birthright — practise your scales on baristas and bartenders.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 13

Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“Welcome to Lenny's podcast. I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
Pete KazanjyMentionsPete is the author of my single favorite book on sales called Founding Sales.
“Today my guest is Pete Kazanjy. Pete is the author of my single favorite book on sales called Founding Sales”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Brianne KimmelMentionsmentioned
“somehow I ran into you at Brianne Kimmel's SaaS School”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
Eric RiesCoinedCreator of the Lean Startup methodology; founder and executive chairman of the Long-Term Stock Exchange; former founder and CTO.
“the sequel to Eric Ries's like The Lean Startup”
▶ Watch at ~9:30approx.
Mike MargMentionsHe's a partner at Craft Ventures. He was an early sales manager and leader there.
“one of our investors here at Atrium is a gentleman named Mike Marg. He's a partner at Craft Ventures.”
▶ Watch at ~25:00approx.
Kyle ParrishMentionsmentioned
“Kyle Parrish was the head of sales at Figma.”
▶ Watch at ~25:00approx.
Paul GrahamCoinedPaul Graham talks about this too right just like live in the future and build it
“It's kind of like Paul Graham's like maker versus manager schedule.”
▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
Brett BersonCoinedit's first rounds podcast by Brett Baron he interviews a lot of operators
“my friend Brett Burson had this great tweet one at one point”
▶ Watch at ~31:30approx.
Jason LemkinCoinedJason created and runs SaaStr and previously co-founded and led EchoSign before its acquisition by Adobe.
“I think actually Jason Lemkin had a pretty funny tweet about this the other day”
▶ Watch at ~41:30approx.
Sean MurrayMentionsThe gentleman who's the CRO over there is a good friend of mine, Sean Murray.
“The gentleman who's the CRO over there is a good friend of mine, Sean Murray.”
▶ Watch at ~43:00approx.
Marissa FuhrerMentionsShe works on the enterprise team there. Like she and she was at Dropbox previously as a seller for a long time.
“there's this woman, Marissa Fuhrer, who works at Figma. She's absolutely fantastic.”
▶ Watch at ~44:00approx.
Eliyahu M. GoldrattCoineddefinitely the goal by Elijah who gold Rat um which explains how my brain works pretty well
“the goal by Eli Goldratt”
▶ Watch at ~55:30approx.
Bill WalshCoinedBill Walsh was a really famous football coach for the for Stanford Cardinal and then San Francisco 49ers
“the other one is a book by Bill Walsh called The Score Takes Care of Itself.”
▶ Watch at ~56:00approx.

Resources · 39

Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“Welcome to Lenny's podcast. I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
VantaMentionssoftware · Christina Cacioppo
“This episode is brought to you by Vanta helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.”
▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
FlatfileMentionssoftware · Flatfile
“If you'd like to learn more or get started, check out Flatfile at flatfile.com/lenny.”
▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
VMwareMentionscompany
“I started my tech career at VMware back in the day.”
▶ Watch at ~5:30approx.
TalentBinCoinedcompany · Pete Kazanjy
“Then I started a software company called Talentpin. It was a recruiting software company”
▶ Watch at ~5:30approx.
Monster WorldwideMentionscompany
“the software company was eventually acquired by Monster Worldwide in 2014”
▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
Founding SalesCoinedbook · Pete Kazanjy
“then I wrote I wrote a book on on sales for founders and other kind of first-time sellers. It's called Founding Sales.”
▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
Modern Sales ProsCoinedcompany · Pete Kazanjy
“I started the what became the nation's largest sales operations leadership community. It's called Modern Sales Pros.”
▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
AtriumCoinedcompany · Justin Kan
“started a new software company called Atrium that makes data-driven sales management software”
▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
Founding SalesRecommendsbook · Pete Kazanjy
“your book Founding Sales is like the book I give every founder that is trying to figure out sales.”
▶ Watch at ~7:00approx.
Glengarry Glen RossMentionsfilm
“their only experience with sales is like Glengarry Glen Ross”
▶ Watch at ~7:30approx.
AmplitudeMentionssoftware · Amplitude
“then Mixpanel showed up, then Amplitude showed up”
▶ Watch at ~8:30approx.
MixpanelMentionssoftware · Mixpanel
“then Mixpanel showed up, then Amplitude showed up”
▶ Watch at ~8:30approx.
The Startup Owner's ManualMentionsbook · Steve Blank and Bob Dorf
“or like Startup Owner's Manual or whatever.”
▶ Watch at ~9:30approx.
The Lean StartupMentionsbook · Eric Ries
“the sequel to Eric Ries's like The Lean Startup”
▶ Watch at ~9:30approx.
SalesforceUsescompany · Salesforce
“They just sign in. They OAuth with Salesforce.”
▶ Watch at ~21:30approx.
HingeMentionscompany
“just metaphorize it to to to Hinge or, you know, Coffee Meets Bagel”
▶ Watch at ~22:30approx.
Coffee Meets BagelMentionssoftware
“Hinge or, you know, Coffee Meets Bagel or like whatever the the the more recent one is.”
▶ Watch at ~22:30approx.
Lenny's NewsletterMentionsnewsletter · Lenny Rachitsky
“There's this really great article on Lenny's newsletter on adding a sales sales organization to a self-serve product”
▶ Watch at ~24:00approx.
Layering Sales on Product-Led GrowthCoinednewsletter · Pete Kazanjy
“There's this really great article on Lenny's newsletter on adding a sales sales organization to a self-serve product that Lenny had me write”
▶ Watch at ~24:00approx.
Layering Sales on Product-Led GrowthRecommendsnewsletter · Pete Kazanjy
“I would encourage people to read that article.”
▶ Watch at ~24:30approx.
Craft VenturesMentionscompany
“He's a partner at Craft Ventures.”
▶ Watch at ~25:00approx.
FigmaMentionssoftware · Figma
“Kyle Parrish was the head of sales at Figma.”
▶ Watch at ~25:00approx.
ScratchpadMentionssoftware
“Scratchpad is a great example of like very bottoms-up.”
▶ Watch at ~26:30approx.
AtlassianMentionscompany
“So like even like the really famous ones like Atlassian”
▶ Watch at ~27:00approx.
DatadogMentionscompany · Datadog
“Like Datadog's a good example or New Relic or AppDynamics.”
▶ Watch at ~27:30approx.
AppDynamicsMentionssoftware
“Like Datadog's a good example or New Relic or AppDynamics.”
▶ Watch at ~27:30approx.
New RelicMentionscompany
“Like Datadog's a good example or New Relic or AppDynamics.”
▶ Watch at ~27:30approx.
SnowflakeMentionscompany · Snowflake Inc.
“I mean, look at Snowflake. Snowflake has like, I don't know, 500 sales people?”
▶ Watch at ~28:00approx.
MergeMentionscompany · Merge
“This episode is brought to you by Merge.”
▶ Watch at ~32:30approx.
LeverMentionssoftware
“early people at like Lever or Greenhouse”
▶ Watch at ~42:30approx.
GreenhouseMentionssoftware
“early people at like Lever or Greenhouse”
▶ Watch at ~42:30approx.
NotionUsessoftware · Notion Labs
“write them down into, you know, a Google Doc or a Notion page or what have you?”
▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
The GoalRecommendsbook · Eliyahu M. Goldratt and Jeff Cox
“The books that I recommend the most there would be the goal by Eli Goldratt.”
▶ Watch at ~55:30approx.
The Score Takes Care of ItselfRecommendsbook · Bill Walsh
“the other one is a book by Bill Walsh called The Score Takes Care of Itself.”
▶ Watch at ~56:00approx.
All-In PodcastMentionspodcast · Chamath Palihapitiya, Jason Calacanis, David Sacks, and David Friedberg
“I listen to Lenny's and I listen to the All-In podcast”
▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
Google DocsUsessoftware · Google
“We actually have a written screen that we do with folks which is a Google Doc”
▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
EncantoMentionsfilm · Walt Disney Animation Studios
“the one that's been on on repeat recently has been Encanto.”
▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
GRINMentionssoftware
“one of our biggest customers is a company called Grin. They're absolutely fantastic. They make influencer management software for brands.”
▶ Watch at ~59:00approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take24:00

You Don't Have To Be Great At Sales, Just Non-Zero

Addressing PLG and self-serve founders who think they need no sales, Pete says you don't have to be great but you have to be non-zero and recognize sales matters. Many self-serve motions stagnate by never layering on sales. He uses Dropbox as the cautionary example and warns founders never to mistake their lead gen for their business.

PLG is great for landing and permeating an org but caps out without sales
Big ARR ($50K-$250K contracts) needs a human to navigate the purchase
Dropbox had great sales leaders but underinvested in product to support org-wide selling
Essentially 100% of B2B companies end up building a sales team, it's when not if

“you don't have to get good at it. You just have to get non-zero at it.”
Pete Kazanjy · 24:00

“never mistake your lead gen for your business.”
Pete Kazanjy · 25:30

#plg#sales#b2b

Hot Take33:30

Good Selling Is Consulting, Not Selling Ice To Eskimos

Pete rejects the old-school ideal of the closer who can "sell ice to an Eskimo," calling that person an asshole because the buyer doesn't need it. Instead a seller should act as a consultant with a predilection for their own solution: qualify hard, walk away from bad-fit buyers, and use discovery questions to reveal a real, costly problem the prospect can then solve with your product.

Frame yourself as a consultant with a bias toward your solution, not a closer
Turning away a bad-fit buyer (e.g. one seller vs Atrium's 10-300 ICP) avoids churn
Discovery questions reveal a high-magnitude, expensive problem to the prospect
When you win as their better path, everybody wins and it scales across the economy

“Man, if you're selling ice to an Eskimo, you're an asshole.”
Pete Kazanjy · 34:00

“you're a consultant that has a particular predilection for a given solution.”
Pete Kazanjy · 34:00

#sales#discovery#consultative-selling

Hot Take51:30

Work From Home Is Bad For Junior Sellers

Pete argues remote work is especially damaging for junior salespeople because learning the sales motion depends on tight feedback loops. Sitting side by side lets a manager listen to calls live and give immediate corrections, whereas async distance stretches correction loops to a day or more. He warns of a generation of 24-year-old SDRs who never learned the skills at the clip they would have sitting amongst peers with a manager in the middle.

Junior reps learn fastest via rapid, side-by-side correction loops
Async distance makes call auditing and coaching loops too slow
Early-stage startups are racing time, so faster learning loops are critical
Remote created "learning loss" for a cohort of junior SDRs and AEs

“it's it's primarily bad for junior sales people.”
Pete Kazanjy · 51:30

“There's a bunch of like 24 year olds who have never like you know, like never learned the skills that are needed”
Pete Kazanjy · 54:00

#remote-work#sales-management#coaching

Explainer· 2

Explainer07:30

What "Modern Sales" Actually Is

Pete reframes salespeople as the microeconomic agents who bring supply to demand rather than waiting for demand to find supply. Modern sales is more operational, rigorous and analytical than the sleazy stereotype, because CRMs and digital activity now let you measure, manage and improve selling behavior. He likens the shift to the pre- and post-moneyball moment in baseball.

Sellers proactively find people who ought to have demand and elucidate the pain to them
The negative perception comes from Glengarry Glen Ross / sleazy car salesman imagery
Modern CRMs plus recorded email, calendar, phone and Zoom activity make selling measurable
Analogous to product analytics moving from finger-in-the-wind to Mixpanel and Amplitude

“they're kind of like the the microeconomic agents in the market that bring supply to demand.”
Pete Kazanjy · 07:30

“modern sales is a more thoughtful, operational, rigorous, analytical kind of bent.”
Pete Kazanjy · 08:30

#sales#modern-sales#mindset

Explainer29:30

Sales Is A Manager Schedule, Not A Maker Schedule

Pete explains why sales feels alien to engineers and PMs: instead of deep work with the same handful of people, you meet multiple new humans daily, context-switch constantly, and must write everything into a CRM. Borrowing Paul Graham's framing, salespeople live on a manager schedule. He coaches a skill he calls "turbo rapport" — building fast trust the way you'd befriend a bartender or barista.

Sales means meeting multiple new humans every day and forming rapport in minutes
You keep continuity across many parallel conversations, unlike deep-work roles
"Turbo rapport": practice rapidly befriending shields-up people like baristas
Fast rapport lets you ask candid, provocative questions that surface hidden pain

“Sales people have manager schedules, interestingly enough.”
Pete Kazanjy · 29:30

“one of the things I challenge my staff to do is I call it turbo rapport.”
Pete Kazanjy · 30:30

#sales#mindset#rapport

Story· 1

Story58:30

Keep Pushing The Boulder: The Grin Deal

Pete closes with a story about Shawn, an early seller at Atrium, who ran three or four opportunities with Grin before landing the account a couple of years ago. Grin was much smaller then and now manages roughly 100 SDRs and 80 AEs on Atrium. The lesson: even at a strong 20-30% win rate, most deals don't close first time through the pipe, but they can on a later pass.

A 30% win rate still means four of five don't close first time through
Grin took three or four opportunities before Shawn got a toehold
Grin grew into ~100 SDRs and ~80 AEs managed with Atrium
Win rate on the second time through the pipeline matters

“you just have to keep like pushing that boulder up the hill, and then eventually when you do, good things happen.”
Pete Kazanjy · 59:30

#story#persistence#sales

Tool· 2

Tool57:00

The Written-Screen Hiring Hack

Instead of relying on interview questions, Pete favors job simulation. Atrium uses a written screen — a Google Doc with about a dozen biographical questions candidates answer with edit rights. Roughly half of applicants never complete it, which filters out the non-serious, and the responses reveal communication ability, effort, and attention to detail like typos or skipped questions.

A ~dozen simple biographical questions in a clonable Google Doc
About 50% of candidates won't even complete it, filtering out the non-serious
Reveals whether people can communicate a story with a beginning, middle and end
Exposes attention to detail via typos or unanswered questions

“you know, 50% of people won't do it.”
Pete Kazanjy · 57:30

“that's a huge hiring hack from my perspective.”
Pete Kazanjy · 58:00

#hiring#tools#screening

Tool55:30

Two Books That Inspired Atrium

Pete recommends two books that shaped his thinking. The Goal by Eli Goldratt is a novelization of the Toyota lean manufacturing system, useful because sales organizations are just revenue factories. The Score Takes Care of Itself by Bill Walsh argues you can't control the score, only a high quantity of high-quality actions — which maps directly to focusing on sales leading indicators.

The Goal (Eli Goldratt): systems thinking and process engineering as a novel
Sales orgs are revenue factories, so lean manufacturing thinking transfers
The Score Takes Care of Itself (Bill Walsh): control your actions, not the score
High quantity of high-quality actions makes the outcome take care of itself

“sales organizations are just revenue factories.”
Pete Kazanjy · 55:30

#books#recommendations#sales

Takeaway· 5

Takeaway11:00

Why Founders Can't Outsource Early Sales

Pete argues the founder must personally do sales for the first couple dozen customers because it's easier for a founder to become minimally good at selling than for a hired seller to become expert in the founder's subject matter. Outsourcing too early breaks the feedback loop and turns market-message validation into a game of telephone. He cites Steve Blank's point that startups often have to fire their first VP of sales because they skipped this step.

Founder-led selling keeps product development, message and learnings in one brain
It's easier for a founder to get minimally good at selling than for a third party to master the subject
Hiring a seller too early loses the feedback loop on whether your message fits the market
Only package and hand off the motion once you have a repeatable selling while-loop

“you can't outsource that behavior right? The founders got to do that stuff”
Pete Kazanjy · 11:00

“startups can't get through can't get to scale without firing their first VP of sales.”
Pete Kazanjy · 12:30

#founder-led-sales#hiring#feedback-loop

Takeaway15:30

The Win-Rate Heuristic For Hiring Your First Seller

Pete gives a concrete signal for when the founder's selling is repeatable enough to hand off: reliably converting first meetings (opportunities) into customers at roughly 15-25%, proven over 50-100 at-bats rather than a lucky 2-out-of-10. Below that threshold, closing only one in thirty is inefficient unless deals are very large. Once it's statistically significant, it feels safe to abstract the motion to a couple of new reps.

Target a ~15-25% win rate turning first meetings into customers
Prove it over 50-100 at-bats, not a small sample
1-in-30 is too inefficient unless you sell ~$500K deals
Onboard cohorts of prospects, learn, iterate, rather than blasting 100 at once

“so like maybe 15% or 20% or 25% turn first meetings into eventual customers right?”
Pete Kazanjy · 15:30

#sales#hiring#metrics

Takeaway22:30

Track Leading Indicators: "Are We Getting Second Dates?"

Because two-thirds of opportunities won't close, Pete says you can't only watch lagging indicators like wins. Early on the simplest useful measure is dating-style: are first meetings turning into second meetings and third meetings? If you're not getting second dates, something is off with your targeting, message or delivery, and you can diagnose it before nine months of failure.

Model your opportunity stages like a product funnel
Early on, just ask whether first meetings become second and third meetings
Bad conversions point to wrong targeting, weak message, or poor delivery
Aim for e.g. 7 of 10 first meetings to reach a second meeting

“Hey, man, are we getting second dates?”
Pete Kazanjy · 22:30

#sales#metrics#pipeline

Takeaway36:00

One Thing To Do Tomorrow To Get Better At Sales

Asked for a single next step, Pete offers a behavioral version and a thoughtful version. Behavioral: walk down the street, make eye contact with everyone, and strike up conversations — compliment a shirt or shoes, but never open with the weather because it's lazy. Thoughtful: get extremely crisp on your ICP so you spend loops on people in the white-hot center of your problem.

Practice starting conversations with strangers to build the muscle
Open with a specific compliment or observation, not the weather
Get very crisp on who has your problem and why (ICP)
Tight ICP stops you wasting time on people who don't have your problem

“just like walking down the street make eye contact with everybody.”
Pete Kazanjy · 36:00

“Don't use the weather because that's lazy.”
Pete Kazanjy · 36:30

#sales#practice#icp

Takeaway41:00

Hire Gritty Early-Stage Sellers, Not A VP Of Sales

For your first sales hires, Pete advises against a seasoned VP of sales and in favor of "deputies" — early-stage sellers from companies that sell to your persona at a similar price point. A polished VP hasn't sold hands-on recently and, per a Jason Lemkin joke, is often "professionally rich" with little reason to grind at your startup. Because there's no GitHub for sales motions, the knowledge lives in your brain and docs, so you need grittier reps who'll sell without polished collateral.

Reach 10-30 self-closed customers before hiring sellers
Hire a couple (not one, not ten) early-stage pioneer AEs to absorb your motion
Avoid managers-of-managers who haven't sold hands-on for a while
Look for deputies from peer-persona companies (e.g. early Lever/Greenhouse sellers)

“unfortunately, there is no GitHub for sales motions.”
Pete Kazanjy · 41:00

“Yeah, I'm professionally rich.”
Pete Kazanjy · 42:00

#hiring#sales-team#founder-led-sales

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Hire the Deputy, Not the VP

The Consultant With a Predilection

The Leading-Indicator Ramp Scorecard

The Sales Motion as Source Code

The Second-Date Funnel

The Selling While Loop

The Written Screen Job Simulation

Turbo Rapport and Sales Scales

People & resources mentioned

People · 13

Resources · 39

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 3

You Don't Have To Be Great At Sales, Just Non-Zero

Good Selling Is Consulting, Not Selling Ice To Eskimos

Work From Home Is Bad For Junior Sellers

✶Explainer· 2

What "Modern Sales" Actually Is

Sales Is A Manager Schedule, Not A Maker Schedule

❝Story· 1

Keep Pushing The Boulder: The Grin Deal

✦Tool· 2

The Written-Screen Hiring Hack

Two Books That Inspired Atrium

▲Takeaway· 5

Why Founders Can't Outsource Early Sales

The Win-Rate Heuristic For Hiring Your First Seller

Track Leading Indicators: "Are We Getting Second Dates?"

One Thing To Do Tomorrow To Get Better At Sales

Hire Gritty Early-Stage Sellers, Not A VP Of Sales

Hot Take· 3

Explainer· 2

Story· 1

Tool· 2

Takeaway· 5