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Sachin Kansal01 June 2025

Why Uber’s CPO delivers food on weekends

7Frameworks
15Insights

Episode overview

Uber CPO Sachin Kansal explains why he regularly drives passengers and delivers food to experience the products under real-world conditions, then documents and follows through on the problems he finds. He describes institutionalizing this practice through organized driving weeks, fix-it OKRs, and a “ship, ship, ship” focus on reducing the time between identifying a problem and delivering code. The conversation also covers early-career product judgment, Uber’s hybrid human-and-autonomous vehicle strategy, the company’s shift toward profitability, intuition-led bets such as taxis and Uber for Teens, and AI-assisted research.

Key ideas

  • Directly using a product in its real environment reveals visceral, contextual problems that dashboards, surveys, and office prototypes cannot show.
  • Dogfooding creates impact only when observations are documented, prioritized, assigned, and converted into shipped improvements.
  • Uber reinforces customer empathy through leadership modeling, organized driving-and-delivery weeks, competitions, and recurring fix-it OKRs.
  • “Ship, ship, ship” means reducing decision and coordination latency once a valuable problem is understood, while treating reversible and irreversible decisions differently.
  • Early-career product managers should seek fast product cycles because repeated micro-decisions build judgment and product sense.
  • Uber expects autonomous vehicles and human drivers to coexist in a hybrid network that balances demand coverage and vehicle utilization.
  • Operational efficiency can fund growth bets, but teams must protect the reliable core before expanding outward into adjacent products.
  • AI tools such as ChatGPT and Gemini help summarize large research reports and provide a starting point for product strategy and brainstorming.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 13

  • Sachin KansalMentionsSachin is chief product officer at Uber where he's been for over 8 years and where he leads product management, design, and product operations.

    Today my guest is Sachin Consul. Sachin is chief product officer at Uber

  • Brandon FooMentionsI'm very excited to chat with Brandon Fu, founder and CEO of Paragon.

    I'm very excited to chat with Brandon Fu, founder and CEO of Paragon.

  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    It is great to be here, Lenny. Thank you for having me.

  • Dara KhosrowshahiMentionsmentioned

    I mean I do it, D does it.

  • James ConwayMentionsmentioned

    This is from James Conway.

  • Dara KhosrowshahiMentionsmentioned

    I remember Dra me tweeting or sharing this insight during co

  • Reid HoffmanMentionsSarah Tavel's former Greylock partner, credited with a maxim about strengths and weaknesses.

    Blitzcaled as Reed Hoffman called it.

  • Marc AndreessenMentionsMark Andre had this visual on some podcasts have just imagined a 100,000 drones just coming out of China just at us.

    Mark Andre has this quote where I think it's um everyone's time is already allocated.

  • Ben HorowitzCoinedBen is the Z in A16Z, the world's largest venture capital firm with over $46 billion in committed capital.

    I have recommended hard thing about hard things by Ben Horowitz.

  • Ashlee VanceCoinedmentioned

    I have read the Ashley Wance one fully.

  • Elon MuskMentionsWhether you like him or not, Elon, this is similar to his um if you watch him, he has sets these really ambitious goals

    I have recommended uh Elon Musk book.

  • Walter IsaacsonCoinedmentioned

    I have recommended the Steve Jobs book by Walter Isixson.

  • Steve JobsMentionsSteve Jobs is just uh the bar he held for the company and for technical talent and for excellence was not uh wavering.

    I have recommended the Steve Jobs book by Walter Isixson.

Resources · 40

  • FlywheelMentionscompany

    Prior to Uber, Sajin was chief product officer at Flywheel

  • LookoutMentionscompany

    a VP of product at Lookout.

  • UberMentionscompany · Uber

    Sachin is chief product officer at Uber where he's been for over 8 years

  • webOSMentionssoftware · Palm

    focused on Palm's mobile operating system, webOSs, and their mobile apps.

  • PalmMentionscompany

    He also spent the early part of his career at Palm

  • ParagonMentionssoftware · Brandon Foo

    Paragon provides an embedded platform that enables engineers to ship these product integrations in just days instead of months

  • StripeMentionscompany · Patrick Collison and John Collison

    Last year, 1.3% of the global GDP flowed through Stripe.

  • Uber EatsUsesproduct · Uber Technologies, Inc.

    I end up placing maybe three orders, three Uber Eats orders every week.

  • JiraUsessoftware · Atlassian

    You're putting them in your Jira tracking or whatever tracker you may be using and you're fixing them.

  • Uber for BusinessMentionsproduct · Uber

    We do have a product we call Uber for business where it's a business admin using it.

  • Domino'sMentionscompany

    We have very close relationships with our big customers such as McDonald's or Dominoes

  • McDonald'sMentionscompany

    We have very close relationships with our big customers such as McDonald's or Dominoes

  • FigmaMentionssoftware · Figma

    You don't even ship designs in a Figma.

  • Palm PilotMentionsproduct · Palm

    I grew up as a product manager back in the day in the 2000s at Palm Pal the Palm Pilot.

  • CodaUsessoftware · Coda

    I personally use KOD every single day to manage my podcast and also to manage my community.

  • May MobilityMentionscompany

    we just announced another partner earlier this afternoon uh called May Mobility.

  • WeRideMentionscompany

    We've also launched internationally in Abu Dhabi with our partner Weeride.

  • WaymoMentionscompany · Alphabet

    We recently launched in Austin with Veimo and that's been going really well

  • WalmartMentionscompany

    We have a partnership with Walmart

  • Uber for TeensCoinedproduct · Uber

    Uber for teens, which is something I launched a couple of years ago.

  • Uber ReserveMentionsproduct · Uber

    And on the right side, Uber reserve, Uber for teens

  • AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk

    all these startups that like come in, disrupt the whole industry, like Airbnb is another example

  • GeminiUsessoftware · Google

    We're using both chat GPT as well as Gemini uh quite heavily in the company.

  • NotebookLMMentionssoftware · Google Labs

    I've not used Notebook LM yet.

  • ChatGPTUsessoftware · OpenAI

    Specifically, I end up using chat GPT a lot for summarization of documents.

  • HPMentionscompany

    in the end you know HP bought Pum

  • BlackBerryMentionsfilm · Matt Johnson

    there was a period of time when it was really BlackBerry and Pong were the sort of the two smartphones

  • AndroidMentionssoftware · Google

    And then Apple announced the iPhone and then soon thereafter Android uh was announced by Google

  • iPhoneMentionsproduct · Apple

    And then Apple announced the iPhone and then soon thereafter Android uh was announced by Google

  • GoogleMentionscompany · Google

    especially if they are scale players like Apple and Google

  • Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*tRecommendsbook · Steven Pressfield

    There's a book that I loved that uh is for writing and uh the title is nobody wants to read your

  • Elon Musk (book)Mentionsbook · Walter Isaacson

    I'm in the middle of the Walter Isix one.

  • Steve Jobs (book)Recommendsbook · Walter Isaacson

    I have recommended the Steve Jobs book by Walter Isixson.

  • Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic FutureRecommendsbook · Ashlee Vance

    I have recommended uh Elon Musk book. I have I have read the Ashley Wance one fully.

  • The Hard Thing About Hard ThingsRecommendsbook · Ben Horowitz

    I have recommended hard thing about hard things by Ben Horowitz.

  • Peaky BlindersRecommendstv show · Steven Knight

    My favorite recent TV show is Piquey Blinders.

  • NetflixMentionscompany · Netflix

    Piquey Blinders is on Netflix.

  • Peaky BlindersRecommendstv show · Steven Knight

    So I highly recommend watching it.

  • ChatGPTRecommendssoftware · OpenAI

    deep research from chatd because I've never had a research assistant and I keep going back to that research assistant

  • Lenny's PodcastMentionspodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 4

Hot Take36:30

Why He Insists on Nerve-Wracking Live Demos

Sachin insists on live product demos at announcements, a habit from his Palm days. Externally, live demos force you to tell a story by showing the product in action instead of slideware. Internally, the fact that it must work on stage creates rigor before launch, and it gives the team a permanent, proud record of the product they built actually working.

  • Habit dates back to consumer electronics announcements at Palm
  • External reason: a working demo tells a story better than slides and pictures
  • Internal reason: 'it has to work on stage' forces rigor before launch
  • Live demos create lasting pride for the product and engineering teams

if it is going up on stage, it has to work.

Sachin Kansal · 38:30

it creates such a sense of pride amongst the product team and the engineering team to actually see their product live on stage

Sachin Kansal · 39:00
#product-launch#demos#leadership#storytelling
Hot Take37:30

Nobody Actually Cares About Your Product

Sachin's contrarian belief: no one really cares about the feature you want to talk about. Product people are obsessed with their products, but for end users the product is maybe 10 minutes of their life once a week. The way to make people care is to tell a story that shows the product in action and how a user gets real value from it.

  • End users are too busy to care about your feature
  • Your product may be only ~10 minutes of a user's week
  • You make users care by telling a story, not showing slideware
  • Avoid hubris about your own product

no one actually really cares about the feature that you want to talk about.

Sachin Kansal · 37:30

How do you make them care? You have to tell a story.

Sachin Kansal · 38:00
#storytelling#product-management#positioning#hot-take
Hot Take47:00

What He Hates From Engineers: 'I Can't Start Without a PRD'

Asked what he hates from engineers, Sachin says it's when they claim they can't do anything without a PRD from a product manager. While PRDs help PM job security, the best engineers don't need to start with one; they should have an equal seat at the whiteboard, co-create the plan, write the document together, and build. He describes himself as boundless, welcoming product opinions from anyone regardless of function.

  • Being blocked for lack of a fully-specified PRD is his pet peeve
  • The best engineers co-create rather than wait for requirements
  • Everyone's product opinion matters, regardless of team
  • AI tooling now makes drafting a good PRD one-pager fast, removing the excuse

the best engineers are the ones who actually don't need to start with a PRD.

Sachin Kansal · 47:30

They should co-create and they should write a document together and they should just build.

Sachin Kansal · 48:00
#engineering#collaboration#prd#product-management
Hot Take1:14:00

Your Relationship With Users Is Not Reciprocal

Sachin's unique take: the relationship with end users isn't reciprocal. You wake up thinking about how to make your product better, but users wake up thinking about their own complex lives, not your product. For the brief window (like 15 minutes of an Uber ride) when they do engage, that's your chance to dazzle them or be so seamless they don't have to think, so they open the app again out of muscle memory.

  • Users don't think about your product the way you do
  • Their lives are complex; you're just trying to be a part of it
  • The short window of use is your chance to dazzle or be seamless
  • Seamless experiences earn muscle-memory reuse, not centrality in their lives

I don't think our relationship with our end users is reciprocal

Sachin Kansal · 1:14:00

for those 15 minutes in the day when they do think about your product, that is your opportunity to absolutely dazzle them.

Sachin Kansal · 1:14:30
#product-philosophy#user-experience#hot-take#humility

Explainer· 2

Explainer22:30

How Uber Turns Dog Fooding Into 300-Issue Fix-It OKRs

Sachin explains how Uber makes dog fooding cultural rather than heroic. Every quarter the company runs a week of driving and delivery with a competition for most trips and most feedback. Then each team signs up for a six-month 'fixit' OKR to fix 300 reported issues. He stresses the exact number doesn't matter, only that having a number forces the boring but critical work of actually fixing what's broken.

  • Quarterly one-week driving and delivery competition with prizes
  • Each team (driver, rider, Eats) sets a six-month OKR to fix 300 issues
  • Fixit is balanced against growth, retention, and cost-savings OKRs
  • The number itself is arbitrary; committing to a number is what matters

every quarter we organize one week of driving and delivery. And we have a little bit of a competition.

Sachin Kansal · 23:00

The number actually doesn't matter. But the fact that there's a number is what matters.

Sachin Kansal · 24:00
#okrs#product-operations#dog-fooding#prioritization
Explainer49:30

Uber's Hybrid Network Strategy for Self-Driving Cars

Sachin explains how Uber approaches autonomous vehicles after divesting its own self-driving unit during COVID. Uber now takes a partner approach, having signed ~15 AV partners, and builds a 'hybrid network' mixing human drivers and AVs via a rich set of APIs. The value: AVs are expensive assets that sit underutilized at low-demand times and fall short at peaks, so Uber's demand density and human drivers smooth utilization for partners.

  • Uber divested its own self-driving unit during COVID and went partner-first
  • Signed about 15 AV partners integrating via Uber's APIs
  • Hybrid network combines human drivers and AVs on one marketplace
  • Human drivers fill peak demand; Uber's density utilizes AVs in slow periods

What we are building is we are building a hybrid network. The hybrid network has a hybrid of human drivers uh and AVs on the…

Sachin Kansal · 50:30

These cars are expensive. These are assets that need to be utilized.

Sachin Kansal · 51:00
#autonomous-vehicles#strategy#uber#marketplace

Story· 4

Story05:30

How Uber's CPO Dog Foods at Extreme Scale

Sachin Kansal describes the scale of his dog fooding: 5-10 Uber rides and roughly 3 Eats orders a week, plus setting aside half a day once or twice a month to actually drive and deliver in the Bay Area. Over his time at Uber he has done 700-800 driving and delivery trips. Afterward he takes screenshots, writes documents, tags the responsible people, and follows through until issues are fixed.

  • Rides 5-10 times a week and places ~3 Uber Eats orders weekly
  • Drives and delivers once or twice a month for half a day or a day
  • Has done 700-800 driving/delivery trips total at Uber
  • Documents findings with screenshots and tags owners, then follows through on fixes

I will set aside half a day or a day and then I'll go out and I'll drive and deliver here in the Bay Area.

Sachin Kansal · 06:30

that's probably one of the best parts of my job. I really really enjoy it.

Sachin Kansal · 07:00
#dog-fooding#product-culture#uber#product-management
Story17:00

The Suitcase Moment That Built His Empathy for Drivers

Early in his dog fooding journey, on about his fifth or sixth drive, Sachin picked up a woman heading to San Jose airport who left her suitcase on the curb and got in the car, silently expecting him to load it. The realization of what is unspoken but expected of drivers hit him emotionally. He calls it a somber day he has never forgotten, and it built lasting empathy that he wants his whole team to carry into everything they build.

  • Happened almost 8 years ago on his fifth or sixth trip as a driver
  • The passenger expected him to grab her suitcase and load the trunk without asking
  • The emotional jolt taught him what drivers actually go through
  • The lesson: it's not just about the app, it's what a driver feels interacting with humans

it suddenly dawned on me that she's expecting me to get out of my car, grab her suitcase, open the trunk, and put the suitcase…

Sachin Kansal · 17:30

That was a somber ride for me. That was a somber day for me.

Sachin Kansal · 18:00
#empathy#dog-fooding#storytelling#uber
Story1:02:00

The Gut Calls That Could Have Gotten Him Fired

Sachin shares product bets he made against what the data said. He pushed to build safety-sentiment features (not just drive incidents down), championed integrating with taxis despite their decline (now every NYC yellow cab is hailable via Uber), and launched Uber for Teens despite parent and legal resistance. His thesis: when you understand intrinsically what the end user wants, you sometimes have to go with your gut.

  • Built features for the feeling of safety, not just incident-reduction metrics
  • Championed taxi integration; now all NYC yellow cabs are hailable via Uber
  • Launched Uber for Teens over parent and internal risk-team objections
  • Data didn't support these bets, but user understanding did

I have a I have a few and each of those could have gotten me fired, Lenny.

Sachin Kansal · 1:02:30

you go talk to parents, they're like, I am never putting my teen in an Uber.

Sachin Kansal · 1:05:30
#gut-vs-data#product-bets#uber#decision-making
Story1:10:30

What the Palm Failure Taught Him

Sachin reflects on Palm's decline, where it took 3-4 years to respond to the iPhone and Android and ultimately couldn't compete before HP bought it. His core lesson: in consumer markets, being the number three or four player is brutal because the top two compete so ferociously. That made him permanently paranoid about disruptive challengers, and combined with his startup years, it taught him the value of urgency and resilience.

  • Palm took 3-4 years to respond to iPhone and Android
  • Being player number three or four in consumer markets is very hard
  • The top two players compete so ferociously that others can't keep up
  • Key takeaways: never take the status quo for granted; urgency and resilience matter

in consumer markets if you are player number three or player number four it's a little hard

Sachin Kansal · 1:12:00

sense of urgency because you need to move fast because status quo can never be taken for granted

Sachin Kansal · 1:13:00
#failure#palm#competition#career-lessons

Tool· 1

Tool1:07:30

How He Uses ChatGPT and Deep Research at Work

Sachin describes his current AI workflow at Uber, where teams use both ChatGPT and Gemini heavily. He personally uses ChatGPT to summarize 50-100 page user research reports he'd never have time to read, giving him a feel for riders in different countries. He especially values the deep research feature as a research assistant and starting point for brainstorms, calling it something that makes the team better at their jobs, not just faster.

  • Uber uses both ChatGPT and Gemini heavily across the company
  • He uses ChatGPT to summarize 50-100 page user research documents
  • Deep research acts as a research assistant and brainstorm starting point
  • He plans to try NotebookLM for audio summaries of information

Specifically, I end up using chat GPT a lot for summarization of documents.

Sachin Kansal · 1:08:00

it's an amazing research assistant and it's absolutely a starting point for a brainstorm with my team

Sachin Kansal · 1:09:30
#ai#chatgpt#deep-research#productivity

Takeaway· 4

Takeaway19:00

Two Tips to Not Annoy Your Uber Driver

From hundreds of drives, Sachin shares two concrete tips for riders. First, it's fine to be on the phone, but ask the driver's permission first, which annoys them far less. Second, don't slam the door on your way out, because it's their car and their last moment of interaction with you, and closing it softly earns you better ratings.

  • Ask permission before taking a phone call in the car
  • Drivers will always say yes, but asking annoys them much less
  • Never slam the door on your way out, it is the driver's car
  • A soft door close helps you get good ratings from the driver

It's totally okay for you to be on the phone. You know we have to do that. Just ask them for permission.

Sachin Kansal · 19:30

on your way out, do not slam the door. It is their car.

Sachin Kansal · 20:00
#uber#etiquette#ride-tips#customer-experience
Takeaway1:19:30

Turn the Porch Light On for Your Delivery Person

Asked how to avoid annoying an Uber Eats delivery person, Sachin's tip is simple: if food is being delivered at night, turn the porch light on. The courier has just driven in the dark, doesn't know your house, and is straining to find your door, often resorting to their phone flashlight.

  • Delivery couriers drive in the dark and don't know your house
  • They often use their phone flashlight to find the right door
  • Turning the porch light on makes their job dramatically easier

They don't know your house. They're trying really, really hard to find your house.

Sachin Kansal · 1:20:00
#uber-eats#delivery#etiquette#tips
Takeaway41:00

Career Advice: Ship Fast, and It's the Micro Decisions That Matter

Sachin's top advice for early-career PMs is to join a company where you can ship many products fast, going through three to five product cycles in two to three years to compress cycle time. What actually makes a great PM isn't five strategic ideas, it's the thousand micro decisions (where the button goes, what the copy says, which city to launch in) that build an innate sense of judgment and gut.

  • Pick a job where you can ship multiple products as fast as possible
  • Aim for 3-5 product cycles in 2-3 years to build reps
  • Greatness comes from a thousand micro decisions, not five macro ones
  • Reps develop the gut and product sense that separate good PMs from great ones

go to a job where you can ship multiple products as fast as possible.

Sachin Kansal · 41:30

It's the thousand micro decisions that you made. Not the five macro decisions that you made, but the thousand micro decisions that you made.

Sachin Kansal · 42:00
#career-advice#product-management#product-sense#cycle-time
Takeaway1:18:30

His Life Motto: Focus on the Inputs

Sachin's favorite life motto, which his kids are tired of hearing, is to focus on the inputs. You can't really control output metrics, whether it's losing weight, getting good grades, or improving product retention, but you can control the inputs. So put your attention there.

  • Life and work have input metrics and output metrics
  • You can't control outputs, only inputs
  • Applies to weight loss, grades, sports, and shipping products
  • The discipline is to focus your effort on the inputs

You can't really control the output metrics. All you can control is inputs.

Sachin Kansal · 1:19:00

So, focus on the inputs.

Sachin Kansal · 1:19:00
#motto#mindset#productivity#life-advice