LLenny's Podcast
← All episodes
Max Schoening (Head of Product, Notion)03 May 2026

Why cultivating agency matters more than cultivating skills in the AI era

7Frameworks
15Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 7

Hot Take08:30

Why Designers Should Code (But Not To Ship It)

Max argues the point of designers and PMs writing code isn't to land it in production — it's that coding forces you to interrogate the medium you're designing with. He'd rather have a designer who deeply understands how an agent loop works than one who can tweak UI details but doesn't grasp the underlying material.

  • The value of coding is that it forces you to consider the medium, not to deploy
  • Understanding agent loops matters more than tweaking traditional software
  • Coding harnesses are becoming like the operating systems of the '90s
  • The goal is to master the material, not become a cog in the delivery mechanism

I actually don't care at all whether designers write code that lands in production.

Max Schoening · 08:30

the reason why is to to become a master of the material, not a sort of cog in the delivery mechanism for the idea.

Max Schoening · 10:00
#design#coding#product#ai
Hot Take11:00

Agency Matters More Than Skills in the AI Era

With AI putting skills at everyone's fingertips, Max says the real differentiator is agency — the belief that the world around you is malleable and can be changed. He observes agency is not evenly distributed, and the people who understand the world is malleable will thrive while those who cling to fixed role definitions will struggle.

  • AI removes the 'skill issue' excuse, so agency becomes the thing that matters
  • Agency is not evenly distributed in the world
  • People who see the world as malleable will do great
  • Those who cling to rigid role definitions will have a much harder time

the thing that matters is agency and I don't think agency is very evenly distributed in the world

Max Schoening · 11:00

cultivate agency I think that's the that's the thing

Max Schoening · 11:30
#agency#ai#career#mindset
Hot Take24:00

The SaaS Apocalypse Is Greatly Exaggerated

Against the narrative that everyone will build their own tools and abandon SaaS, Max argues most people don't actually want to maintain the full software stack. Software is like a garden that needs tending, and the 'as a service' part you pay for is the maintenance and specialists thinking hard about the problem. He expects tools to become more general, but still delivered as a service.

  • Most people don't want to maintain the full stack of software
  • The 'as a service' value is maintenance plus specialists solving a problem
  • He tried rebuilding Notion in a weekend and concluded people don't want that
  • Tools will trend toward general-purpose (like the '90s), but still as a service

So I think to some degree the SAS apocalypse is greatly exaggerated.

Max Schoening · 26:30

Software is like a garden. you need to tend to it and the the the thing you pay for in the as a service is…

Max Schoening · 25:30
#saas#product#software#hot-take
Hot Take32:30

Society Isn't Capped by Intelligence

Max pushes back on the labs' assumption that people always want the frontier model. Using a retina display analogy — once you can't see the pixels, you don't need them smaller — he argues cognitive tasks may saturate at 'good enough,' after which speed, cost, and running locally matter more. He's far more interested in an 'exoskeleton' than a god in a box.

  • The labs assume people always want the smartest, frontier model
  • Retina analogy: past a threshold of intelligence, you want speed and modality instead
  • Once models are 'good enough,' you optimize for local, cheaper, faster
  • Society is largely not capped by intelligence

the analogy I like to give is a retina display, which is after I can't see the pixels, I can't see the pixels. I don't…

Max Schoening · 32:30

I think society is largely not capped by intelligence.

Max Schoening · 33:30
#ai#models#hot-take#future
Hot Take36:00

Token Spend Is the New Lines of Code

Max warns against turning token spend into a metric to boast about, comparing it directly to bragging about lines of code written in a day. He doesn't care how many tokens someone spends — it's not a useful metric — though he has some sympathy for why a company at Meta's scale might use a leaderboard to push people to change how they work.

  • Making token spend a bragging metric mirrors boasting about lines of code
  • The largest software projects don't have that many millions of lines of code
  • Token spend is not a useful metric
  • He has sympathy for leaderboards only as a nudge to change entrenched behavior

I think there's a real danger in sort of making the token spend the the metric to like boast about, which is the same as…

Max Schoening · 36:00

it's not a metric that's useful.

Max Schoening · 36:30
#ai#metrics#management#hot-take
Hot Take1:07:30

We Already Have UBI — It's Called Knowledge Work

Max's half-joking, half-serious hot take on universal basic income: we already have it, and it's called knowledge work. He argues what we actually need to live and be content is far less than the hierarchy of jobs we've built, and that humans will keep inventing reasons why they absolutely must stay in the loop around agents.

  • We already have UBI in the form of knowledge work
  • What we actually need to be content is a lot less than we've built
  • He doesn't exclude his own job from this framing
  • Humans keep inventing reasons they must insert themselves into the loop

we already have universal basic income. It's called knowledge work.

Max Schoening · 1:08:00
#ubi#ai#work#hot-take
Hot Take1:11:00

Small Group Theory: Sometimes It's Good to Be Exclusive

Max's contrarian view is that inclusivity isn't always all that great — he believes in 'small group theory,' that the world is run by group chats of eight people or fewer. Applied to product, chasing 8 billion users could upset the top 500 million who want different things. Being okay with being exclusive and building a really good product for a specific in-group can be a winning strategy.

  • Contrarian take: inclusivity isn't always all that great
  • Small group theory: the world is run by group chats of eight people or fewer
  • Chasing every user can upset the top of the class who want different things
  • TBPN's tiny-but-influential audience is cited as proof exclusivity can win

I very much believe in small group theory like I think the world is run by group chats of eight people or fewer

Max Schoening · 1:11:30

I think that inclusivity isn't always all that great

Max Schoening · 1:11:30
#contrarian#product#strategy#audience

Explainer· 2

Explainer18:00

What Malleable Software Actually Means

Max defines malleable software as software that works closer to the interest of the people who use it than the interest of the corporation that makes it. He uses a home analogy — we'd never accept a living room we couldn't rearrange — yet that's exactly the world of glued-together apps we live in, where changing an app's behavior is usually impossible.

  • Malleable software serves users' interests over the maker's interests
  • Apps glue together UI, data ownership, and behavior into an unchangeable square
  • We'd never accept a home we couldn't rearrange, but we accept it in software
  • The real question is whether you have ownership over your computing life

Malleable software is the idea that software works closer to the interest of the people that use it than the interest of the corporation that…

Max Schoening · 18:00

imagine you lived in an environment where you do not get to rearrange your living room and the kitchen has to be exactly set up…

Max Schoening · 18:30
#malleable-software#product#software#ownership
Explainer57:00

Taste Is a Virtual Machine in Your Head

Max defines taste as the ability to run a virtual machine in your head that, given an idea, predicts whether a specific in-group will like it. You decide your in-group and get good at emulating their reaction — and the only way to build it is reps with feedback, exactly like training a model via back-propagation. This is why he's skeptical that taste is humanity's last differentiator.

  • Taste = running a mental VM that predicts an in-group's reaction to an idea
  • You pick your in-group; it doesn't have to be all 8 billion people
  • The only way to build taste is iterations with feedback — reps
  • The loop resembles back-propagation, so taste may not be uniquely human

You're able to run a virtual machine in your head where given an idea, you can predict for a certain inroup whether they're going to…

Max Schoening · 57:30

And to do that you just have to do reps. It's almost like training a model

Max Schoening · 58:00
#taste#product#design#ai

Story· 1

Story12:30

Drive Notion Like It's Stolen

Max gives concrete examples of high agency at Notion: the mantra of driving the company 'like it's stolen' even as a non-founder, Brian Leven becoming the org's number one recruiter beyond his day job, and Eric Lou reshaping his own role from writing PRDs to building prototypes so he'd be worth hiring in a founder's first five.

  • Even non-founders can contribute in a way that exercises real agency
  • Brian Leven blurs engineering and design and became Notion's top recruiter
  • Eric Lou reshaped his role from strategy docs to Figma to building prototypes
  • High agency looks like changing your role to how you think it should be

do you drive notion like it's stolen

Max Schoening · 12:30

I'm going to work on the skills so that you would hire me in the first five

Max Schoening · 13:00
#agency#notion#career#teams

Q&A· 1

Q&A16:00

How to Develop Agency: Just Start Making Things

Asked how someone can build agency within themselves, Max points to the Steve Jobs realization that the world is made by people no smarter than you — and says the biggest through-line is making. Tinkering and making things (even a home-cooked meal) puts you on a treadmill of creating, and eventually people pay attention, awakening you to the idea that you can just change things.

  • The Steve Jobs insight: the world is made up by people no smarter than you
  • The biggest through-line to agency is making things
  • Tinkering is innately human — tool-making, cooking, creating art all count
  • Don't start by scheming around a bad boss — just start making things

the biggest throughine I've found is making.

Max Schoening · 16:30

no, no, just start by making things.

Max Schoening · 17:00
#agency#advice#making#mindset

Tool· 2

Tool1:19:30

Max Schoening's Book Recommendations

In the lightning round, Max recommends three books: Code by Charles Petzold (the secret language of hardware and software), Tools for Conviviality by Ivan Illich (tools that enable human autonomy versus industrial-scale tools that erode it), and Seeing Like a State (how systems create false legibility that neglects on-the-ground reality).

  • Code by Charles Petzold — how computers actually work, no code until chapter 27
  • Tools for Conviviality by Ivan Illich — tools that enable vs. erode human autonomy
  • Seeing Like a State — the trap of fake legibility for executives
  • Executives love creating false legibility because humans crave signal over noise

it is actually surprising to me how many professionally employed programmers don't know how computers work.

Max Schoening · 1:19:30
#books#recommendations#reading#tools
Tool1:23:00

Max Schoening's Product Picks: Ghostty, Moshi, Corne, Civivi

Max's recent product loves: Ghostty terminal emulator (most people use terrible terminals), Moshi for the phone, an open-source Corne split keyboard (whose schematics you could fully rebuild from scratch), and a Civivi pocket knife. Several picks tie back to his theme of clawing back agency and ownership over your compute life.

  • Ghostty terminal emulator — don't do a terrible terminal to yourself
  • Moshi — a not-free but well-done phone product he's exploring
  • Corne — an open-source split keyboard you can rebuild from schematics
  • Civivi pocket knife — a higher-quality physical tool

It's Ghosty terminal emulator. Like most people use terrible terminals. Don't do that to yourself. Just use Ghosty.

Max Schoening · 1:23:00
#products#tools#recommendations#hardware

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway28:30

The First 10% of Every Project Is Now Free

The biggest change to Max's work is that the first 10% of every project is now free — there's no point writing a PRD when you can just build the janky demo version. But he cautions that even if the first 90% is done, the last 10% is still 90% of the work. This makes it cheap to explore many paths and builds iteration into product development early.

  • The first 10% of every project is now essentially free
  • No point writing a PRD when you can build the demo version instead
  • Even if the first 90% is done, the last 10% is still actually 90%
  • You can now send off 10 agents to explore 10 different paths cheaply

I think the first 10% of every project are now free.

Max Schoening · 28:30

even if you're generous and say the first 90% are now done the last 10% are still actually 90%.

Max Schoening · 29:30
#product#ai#prototyping#workflow
Takeaway1:00:30

Great Products Have One Tiny Core That's a Superpower

Max says the truly great products all have one tiny core that is exceptionally good — GitHub's pull request, Heroku's git push, Dropbox's menu-bar sync icon, Notion's blocks. The biggest pitfall is the belief that adding one more feature will finally make the product great. That never works; the surrounding value flows from the tiny superpower at the center.

  • Truly great products have one tiny core that is exceptionally good
  • The biggest pitfall: thinking one more feature will finally make it great
  • Examples: GitHub's pull request, Heroku's git push, Dropbox's sync icon
  • Dropbox's icon was so good at syncing it doubled as an internet indicator

if I really look at the the truly great products they all have one tiny core that is so exceptionally good.

Max Schoening · 1:01:00

one of the biggest pitfalls is if you get into the loop of if I just add one more thing to the product it'll be…

Max Schoening · 1:01:00
#product#design#strategy#takeaway