LLenny's Podcast
← All episodes
Bill Carr (author of Working Backwards)02 November 2023

Unpacking Amazon’s unique ways of working

6Frameworks
12Insights

Episode overview

Lenny Rachitsky speaks with Working Backwards co-author and former Amazon executive Bill Carr about the mechanisms behind Amazon’s product and process innovation. Carr explains single-threaded leadership, disagree-and-commit decision-making, PR/FAQ development, input versus output metrics, and the Bar Raiser hiring process. He emphasizes starting with a clearly defined customer problem, creating accountable teams, and committing long enough for new operating mechanisms to become effective.

Key ideas

  • Working backwards begins with a specific customer need or problem and derives the required solution and organizational work from it.
  • Single-threaded teams gain ownership, speed, and agility by giving one leader and a dedicated cross-functional team enduring responsibility for a program.
  • Disagree and commit requires people to surface material contrary evidence, ensure it is understood, and then support the decision once the leader has considered it.
  • The PR/FAQ process sharpens the customer, problem, and proposed solution before scarce engineering resources are committed.
  • A product funnel should evaluate many documented ideas and advance only the strongest, rather than treating every proposed project as destined to ship.
  • Input metrics measure controllable drivers of customer experience; Amazon treated financial measures such as revenue and free cash flow as downstream outputs.
  • Bar Raisers protect hiring standards by running structured debriefs, reinforcing leadership-principle criteria, and counterbalancing a hiring manager’s urgency bias.
  • Innovation requires tolerance for well-calculated failures, long-term incentives, senior sponsorship, and organizational structures that protect small teams from bureaucracy.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Communication4 steps

Have Backbone, Disagree and Commit

Dissent is an obligation, not a right — and commitment only starts once you've been genuinely heard.

Read →
Strategy5 steps

Input Metrics Over Output Metrics

Stop managing the revenue number. Instrument the controllable customer-experience inputs that produce it.

Read →
Leadership5 steps

Single-Threaded Leadership

Kill resource contention by giving one leader one mission and every function they need to deliver it.

Read →
Innovation5 steps

Structural Conditions for Innovation

Companies that say they tolerate failure but punish it in comp and career don't get innovation. Change the structure.

Read →
Leadership5 steps

The Bar Raiser Hiring Process

Put a trained, independent standard-keeper with veto power on every interview loop — and let them run the debrief.

Read →
Innovation5 steps

The Working Backwards PR/FAQ Process

Start every new product from the customer's problem, written as a press release, before any constraint enters the room.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 12

  • Bill CarrMentionsbill joined Amazon just 5 years after it was founded stayed there for 15 years

    “today my guest is Bill Carr bill is the co-author of the book working backwards”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    “today my guest is Bill Carr”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Colin BryarMentionswhere he and his co-author Colin Brier help growth stage and public companies implement the many practices developed at Amazon

    “where he and his co-author Colin Brier help growth stage and public companies implement the many practices developed at Amazon”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • Ethan EvansMentionsEthan is a former vice president at Amazon executive coach and course creator focused on helping leaders grow into Executives

    “huge thank you to Ethan Evans for making this episode possible and introducing me to bill”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • Jeff BezosMentionsthe Jeff Bezos thing that like the success of today was set in motion three years ago

    “Jeff Bezos is you know fundamentally he's s a very scientific and analytical thinker”

    ▶ Watch at ~8:30approx.
  • Rick DalzellMentionswe still had you know a sea level leader of Engineering in you know Rick Delle

    “we still had you know a sea level leader of Engineering in you know Rick Delle”

    ▶ Watch at ~23:30approx.
  • Steve KesselMentionsone of my managers at one point Steve kessle

    “I got great advice actually from one of my managers at one point Steve kessle”

    ▶ Watch at ~31:00approx.
  • Safi BahcallCoinedThe best sort of like academic overview or summary, I think, comes from a guy Safi Bahcall who wrote a book called Loonshots.

    “sfie ball I think writes about this in his book loonshots”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:12:30approx.
  • Andy JassyMentionsAndy jass's organization which was AWS at that time

    “two of our smartest you know leaders in the company on those things Steve kessle and Andy jasse”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:13:00approx.
  • Steve JobsMentionsSteve Jobs is just uh the bar he held for the company and for technical talent and for excellence was not uh wavering.

    “the other one I'd say that's a little bit different is I'd recommend the Steve Jobs biography”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:26:30approx.
  • Neal StephensonCoinedmy favorite series of books ever which is the Baroque cycle by Neil Stevenson

    “recent books would be um seven EES by Neil Stevenson is a favorite”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:26:30approx.
  • Peter SengeCoinedthe great uh business writer Peter Sang

    “someone named Peter Singh s in the book Fifth Discipline”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:31:00approx.

Resources · 36

  • Amazon StudiosMentionscompany · Amazon

    “including Amazon music Prime video and Amazon Studios”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Amazon MusicMentionsproduct · Amazon

    “including Amazon music Prime video and Amazon Studios”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Working BackwardsCoinedbook · Colin Bryar and Bill Carr

    “Bill Carr bill is the co-author of the book working backwards”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Working Backwards LLCCoinedcompany · Bill Carr and Colin Bryar

    “these days Bill runs a consulting firm called working backwards LLC”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • OfferUpMentionscompany

    “then Chief Operating Officer at OfferUp”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • MaveronMentionscompany

    “bill was an executive in Residence at maveron an early stage VC firm”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • AssemblyAIMentionscompany · AssemblyAI

    “today's episode is brought to you by a assembly AI”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • CodaUsessoftware · Coda

    “I use Kota every day to Wrangle my newsletter content calendar my interview notes for podcasts and to coordinate my sponsors”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
  • AmazonMentionscompany · Jeff Bezos

    “just how many new ways of working Amazon contributed to the way Tech and business runs”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • KindleMentionsproduct · Amazon

    “the Kindle AWS Alexa Echo um Prime”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • Amazon PrimeMentionsproduct · Amazon

    “Prime the Prime subscription itself is innovative”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • AlexaMentionssoftware · Amazon

    “the Kindle AWS Alexa Echo um Prime”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • Amazon Web ServicesMentionscompany · Amazon

    “the Kindle AWS Alexa Echo um Prime”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • Prime VideoMentionsproduct · Amazon

    “one for music and one for video which are now you know Amazon music and Prime video”

    ▶ Watch at ~22:30approx.
  • Wix StudioMentionssoftware · Wix

    “this episode is brought to you by Wix Studio”

    ▶ Watch at ~40:00approx.
  • Working Backwards websiteMentionswebsite · Bill Carr and Colin Bryar

    “we have a website related to the book which is www.work backwards. comom”

    ▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
  • AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk

    “there's a lot of amazonians that ended up at Airbnb a lot of leadership”

    ▶ Watch at ~54:30approx.
  • Good to GreatRecommendsbook · Jim Collins

    “go read good to great it is in my opinion it's the best you know most important management book you'll ever read”

    ▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
  • Six SigmaMentionsother

    “this is a concept from uh Six Sigma”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:02:30approx.
  • Fire PhoneMentionsproduct · Amazon

    “some products Amazon has launched have not worked out say the fir phone is a classic example”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:04:00approx.
  • Amazon EchoMentionsproduct · Amazon

    “the technology wasn't there to be able to to create that little puck which one day would become Echo”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:09:00approx.
  • LoonshotsMentionsbook · Safi Bahcall

    “sfie ball I think writes about this in his book loonshots”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:12:30approx.
  • MicrosoftMentionscompany · Bill Gates and Paul Allen

    “they created this bar raiser process which by the way they borrowed from Microsoft”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:16:00approx.
  • Working BackwardsRecommendsbook · Colin Bryar and Bill Carr

    “if people want to dig deeper there's obviously your book working backwards which we'll link to in the show notes”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:23:00approx.
  • Drucker on ManagementRecommendsbook · Peter Drucker

    “I'd say Ducker on management or Drucker the effective executive”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:26:00approx.
  • The Effective ExecutiveRecommendsbook · Peter Drucker

    “I'd say Ducker on management or Drucker the effective executive”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:26:00approx.
  • Steve Jobs (book)Recommendsbook · Walter Isaacson

    “the other one I'd say that's a little bit different is I'd recommend the Steve Jobs biography”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:26:30approx.
  • SevenevesRecommendsbook · Neal Stephenson

    “recent books would be um seven EES by Neil Stevenson is a favorite”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:26:30approx.
  • A Gentleman in MoscowRecommendsbook · Amor Towles

    “seven EES by Neil Stevenson is a favorite and gentleman Moscow”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:26:30approx.
  • DuneRecommendsfilm · Denis Villeneuve

    “my favorite recent movie is uh the latest Dune movie”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:27:00approx.
  • Prime VideoUsesproduct · Amazon

    “you can basically go on to Prime video and you can find this show”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:27:30approx.
  • A Spy Among FriendsRecommendstv show

    “we just enjoyed watching uh the TV series um a spy among friends”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:27:30approx.
  • MGM+Usesproduct · MGMPlus Entertainment

    “a spy among friends which was on MGM plus”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:27:30approx.
  • Zipp 303 FirecrestRecommendsproduct · Zipp

    “it's the zip 303 fir crust uh the latest model and um boy these are just fantastic Wheels”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:28:00approx.
  • The Fifth DisciplineMentionsbook · Peter Senge

    “someone named Peter Singh s in the book Fifth Discipline”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:31:00approx.
  • Lenny's PodcastMentionspodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny podcast.com”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:33:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster10:30

The 'Fitness Function' Failure: Why Compound Metrics Don't Work

Carr shares an Amazon idea that never worked — the 'fitness function,' which blended a team's five or six most important metrics into a single weighted index. He explains that compound metrics obscure cause and effect, making it impossible to learn which actions drive results, and now actively discourages companies from building them.

  • The fitness function munged multiple important metrics into one weighted index
  • Compound metrics become meaningless because you can't see which action drives which output
  • The fix is to break each metric out and manage it individually
  • There's usually one metric that impacts the bigger goal most, so you end up working on that anyway

“so I today I discourage teams and companies from creating any sort of compound metrics I've done that once and it was a terrible idea”

Bill Carr · 11:30
#metrics#amazon#failure#management

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take06:30

Amazon Was as Obsessed With Process Innovation as Product Innovation

Bill Carr argues the underappreciated half of Amazon's story is process innovation, not just famous products like Kindle, AWS, and Alexa. He also stresses Amazon didn't invent most of these ideas from scratch — it built on and adapted work others had done, which he says all great companies should do.

  • People remember Amazon for products (Kindle, AWS, Alexa, Prime) but overlook its equal focus on process innovation
  • Amazon borrowed or was inspired by others for most of its processes rather than inventing them
  • Part of why they wrote the book was to let others 'stand on Amazon's shoulders'

“what people don't realize is that Amazon was actually to some degree equally focused on process innovation”

Bill Carr · 06:30
#amazon#innovation#process#culture
Hot Take37:00

Serving Customers as an 'Article of Faith'

Carr describes Amazon's core belief that if you prioritize and serve customers well, financial outcomes like revenue, active customers, share price, and free cash flow will follow. He's candid that this was never provable — it was a genuine article of faith that shaped how every decision started from the customer and worked backward.

  • Amazon started decisions with what's best for the customer, then worked backward
  • Sales, revenue, share price, and free cash flow were treated as downstream outputs
  • Carr admits there is no objective proof the belief is true — it was faith, not evidence

“we took it as an article of faith that then things like sales things like revenue and active customers and things like the share price…”

Bill Carr · 37:30
#customer-obsession#amazon#philosophy#strategy
Hot Take49:00

Build a Product Funnel, Not a Product Tunnel

Carr contrasts a product funnel (many ideas in, few shipped) with a product tunnel (everything that enters comes out the other side). He argues teams should act like venture capitalists who fund only a small percentage of what they see, killing good ideas in favor of better ones with bigger potential impact.

  • A funnel narrows: lots of ideas at the top, few at the bottom
  • A tunnel ships everything, meaning there's no real comparison or selection
  • Treat yourself like a VC — fund only a very low percentage of ideas
  • Amazon killed plenty of good PR/FAQs because better ones had bigger potential impact

“what you're really trying to create is a product funnel not a product tunnel”

Bill Carr · 49:30

“you should think of yourself honestly as like a venture capitalist they don't fund every company that they meet with they actually fund a very…”

Bill Carr · 49:30
#prioritization#product#amazon#strategy

Explainer· 2

Explainer09:00

Bezos Ran Amazon's Scaling Problem Like a Scientist

Carr describes how Bezos, with a quant and computer-science background, approached the challenge of managing a complex company as a scientific problem. Rather than adopting a fixed playbook, he treated management practices as hypotheses to implement, test, and iteratively improve.

  • Bezos came from a scientific and analytical background (computer science, quant work at De Shaw)
  • He framed company management as needing a system or mechanism, not intuition
  • The approach applied to both process and product innovation

“I'm going to experiment like a scientist would with you know different ideas different hypotheses Implement them and see what works and iteratively improve”

Bill Carr · 09:30
#bezos#leadership#experimentation#management
Explainer1:10:30

How Amazon's Comp Structure Made Risk-Taking Safe

Carr explains two structural reasons Amazon employees would take big bets. Compensation was tied to the stock price rather than performance bonuses, so a killer year brought no kicker and a bad year brought no penalty — letting him move from Amazon's largest P&L to a zero-revenue digital media business without financial downside.

  • There were no performance bonuses; compensation was based on the stock price
  • A great year gave no extra kicker; a bad year carried no financial penalty
  • This let Carr move to a zero-revenue new business without pay changing
  • Performance reviews weighted what you actually built and contributed (an input method)

“one was our compensation system so there were no performance bonuses”

Bill Carr · 1:10:30

“there was no Financial penalty for me either because our compensation was based on the stock price”

Bill Carr · 1:11:00
#compensation#risk#amazon#incentives

Story· 3

Story07:30

Almost Every Amazon Practice Came From One 2003–2007 Window

Carr explains that virtually all of Amazon's landmark products and processes emerged in a single four-year period from 2003 to 2007. This was the moment Amazon shifted from hyper-growth startup to a complex company where the CEO could no longer be in every meeting, forcing the invention of scalable systems.

  • All the products and all but one of the processes were developed between 2003 and 2007
  • This coincided with Amazon going from 'zero to one' into a complex multi-business, multi-country company
  • The trigger was scale: the CEO could no longer be in every important meeting or hire everyone

“this period of both product and process Innovation actually occurred in this this one narrow window of 2003 to 2007”

Bill Carr · 07:30
#amazon#scaling#history#complexity
Story56:30

Why 'Good to Great' Was Amazon's Most Influential Book

Carr recounts how Bezos and the S-team read Good to Great around the time Amazon was struggling with quarterly fire drills to hit revenue targets. He credits it as the single most influential management book for the company because it helped them codify their growth flywheel and shift from short-term revenue chasing to improving durable inputs.

  • Quarterly 'chickens with heads cut off' fire drills to hit numbers didn't produce meaningful progress
  • Good to Great helped Amazon codify its growth flywheel of inputs (selection, experience, low prices)
  • It shifted focus from short-term revenue to long-term input improvement

“if you ask me I think that this was the single most influential and effective management book uh for our company”

Bill Carr · 57:00
#books#flywheel#amazon#management
Story1:05:00

The Fire Phone: A Solution In Search of a Problem

Carr uses Amazon's failed Fire Phone to illustrate that even a great process like the PR/FAQ doesn't guarantee good decisions. In his view, the team started with a technology solution — 3D effects — and then went looking for a problem it might solve, rather than starting from a real customer problem.

  • The Fire Phone started from a technology (3D effects), not a customer problem
  • Carr couldn't see how 3D made discovering or watching media better for customers
  • The simplest diagnostic for a failed product is asking what problem it solved
  • Tools help you make decisions but don't guarantee the right answer

“I would argue this is a case where we made the mistake of what we had a technology solution in mind which was 3D effects…”

Bill Carr · 1:05:30

“the simplest place to go when you see a failed product is to ask yourself what problem did you solve”

Bill Carr · 1:06:00
#fire-phone#failure#product#amazon

Tool· 2

Tool1:26:00

Bill Carr's Most-Recommended Books

In the lightning round, Carr names the books he recommends most. On management he cites Good to Great and Drucker (The Effective Executive), plus the Steve Jobs biography as a window into a tech company going through product innovation and big growth. His recent favorites are Seveneves by Neal Stephenson and A Gentleman in Moscow.

  • Management: Good to Great and Drucker's The Effective Executive
  • The Steve Jobs biography as a parallel to his Amazon experience
  • Recent fiction favorites: Seveneves and A Gentleman in Moscow

“not surprisingly you'll hear good to great”

Bill Carr · 1:26:00

“I'd recommend the Steve Jobs biography”

Bill Carr · 1:26:30
#books#recommendations#management
Tool1:28:30

Carr's Favorite Interview Question

Carr's go-to interview question is deceptively simple: tell me about your most significant professional accomplishment. He clarifies he means something the candidate actually built — a product, process, or organization — not an award or promotion, and says he can fill an entire hour probing that single example using the STAR method.

  • Ask about the candidate's most significant professional accomplishment
  • It must be something built, not an award won or promotion received
  • One well-chosen example can fill an entire hour of probing follow-ups
  • He uses the STAR method to understand situation, actions, and result

“tell me about their most significant professional accomplishment”

Bill Carr · 1:28:30

“I mean not some award you won or some promotion you got I mean something you built”

Bill Carr · 1:29:00
#hiring#interviewing#star-method

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway1:29:30

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Carr's favorite motto, which he traces to the Marine Corps Scout Snipers, is 'slow is smooth and smooth is fast.' He applied it often at Amazon: to genuinely go fast you need to slow down first and get clear on where you're going, because most people confuse raw speed with velocity, which also requires a clear destination.

  • The motto originates with the Marine Corps Scout Snipers
  • To go fast you often need to go slow first and get clarity
  • Speed vs. velocity: velocity adds a vector/destination, not just pace
  • Many people move very fast without a clear destination

“slow is smooth and smooth is fast”

Bill Carr · 1:30:00

“often times to really to go fast you actually need to kind of go slow first”

Bill Carr · 1:30:00
#mindset#productivity#leadership#motto