LLenny's Podcast
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Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny)18 August 2024

Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more

7Frameworks
15Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take08:30

Not Every Team Needs a PM — Especially When You Are the Customer

Kevin argues the 'we don't need product managers' companies (Stripe, Twilio, Figma) all share one trait: they build for themselves, so the builders are also the customers. The PM activities still have to happen, but you only delegate them to a dedicated PM when you're serving a customer who isn't you, or working in a space too complex to cover yourself. He says most 'PMs are useless' takes are really just a reaction to having had a bad PM.

  • Companies famous for having no PMs are usually building for themselves
  • When you are the customer, you don't need someone else to inform what to build
  • The PM activities still must get done — you delegate them only when you're not the customer or the space is complex
  • Good PMs make your life better; the anti-PM sentiment usually traces to a bad PM

they're all building for themselves stripe twilio uh figma like designers for designers Engineers for engineers

Kevin Yien · 09:00

when you are the customer why the heck do you need someone else to help do the things that let you make decisions on what…

Kevin Yien · 09:00
#product-management#hiring#org-design
Hot Take13:00

Great PMs Must Be Great Writers — Writing Is Clarity at Scale

Kevin is surprised this is controversial: a core part of a PM's job is creating clarity both internally and externally, and writing is how you do that at scale. He works backward from a strong belief — if you can't sell or support your own product, he doesn't trust you to build it — which makes compelling writing in the customer's voice foundational, not optional. He cites Joan Didion's line about not knowing what he thinks until he's written it down.

  • Writing is 'clarity at scale' and creating clarity is central to the PM job
  • PMs must write compelling messaging in the voice of the person they serve, not just internal PRDs
  • If you can't sell or support your own product, you can't be trusted to build it
  • Writing forces you to actually understand and crystallize your own thinking

writing is Clarity at scale and a key component to a PM's job is creating Clarity both internally and externally

Kevin Yien · 13:00

I'm working backwards from the belief that if you can't sell or support your own product I don't trust you to build the product

Kevin Yien · 14:00
#writing#product-management#communication
Hot Take54:30

PMs Need Direct Exposure to Raw Material — Not 'Bent Glass'

Kevin rejects the idea that a PM can just consume research reports, sales summaries, or market research — all of it has been processed by someone else, which he calls looking through bent glass. PMs need direct, unfiltered exposure to customers. He likens reading a report about a line cook versus standing next to one: you pick up ancillary details no report can convey, and every time he actually talks to a customer he's reminded he should be doing it far more.

  • Reports, sales summaries, and market research are all pre-processed — 'bent glass'
  • PMs need direct exposure to raw material, full stop
  • Reading about a line cook vs. standing with one — you absorb details no report captures
  • 'I already know my users' is a tempting lie; customers' lives keep changing

it's been processed by someone and PM need direct exposure to raw material end of story

Kevin Yien · 54:30
#user-research#product-management#customer-empathy

Explainer· 4

Explainer04:00

PM Is the Practice of Converting a Team's Potential Into Realized Value

Kevin reframes product management using a physics analogy: a team of engineers and designers is stored potential energy, and PM (the practice, not the person) exists to convert that potential into realized value for a customer with minimum loss. Early on, the people best placed to do that are the builders themselves. This underpins his advice not to jump straight into a PM role.

  • PM is a practice whose job is converting team potential into realized value, not a title
  • The goal is maximum realized value with minimum loss
  • When a product is new, the builders (engineers, designers, salespeople) should be doing the PM work themselves

the purpose of product management not the person but the practice is to convert that potential into as much realized value for someone as possible

Kevin Yien · 04:00
#product-management#career#mental-models
Explainer15:00

How to Get Better at Writing: Consume Great Writing (and Vary Your Cadence)

Kevin's method for improving writing borrows from Anthony Bourdain on food — to make good food you have to eat a lot of it, bad meals included. Good writing comes from consuming lots of good writing, developing your own taste, then producing and comparing. He explicitly warns against reading PM artifacts like PRDs, points to Paul Graham's essays and 'write the way you talk,' and flags cadence — varying short and long sentences so readers don't tune out.

  • Good writing comes from consuming as much good writing as possible; tolerate the occasional bad read
  • Read writing that compels you to action, not PRDs or support articles
  • Paul Graham's advice: write the way you talk — keep it simple and regular
  • Vary sentence cadence (short/long) to interrupt the pattern and keep readers engaged
  • Recommended book: 'Several Short Sentences About Writing'

good writing comes from consuming as much good writing as possible and sometimes you'll read something and say that was actually absolute trash

Kevin Yien · 15:30
#writing#learning#books
Explainer28:30

The PM's Job Is to Draw the Perimeter — Add Constraints So Others Can Be Creative

Kevin describes the PM role as drawing the perimeter of the problem space so engineers and designers can fill it as creatively as they want. Counterintuitively, adding more constraints — customer segment, jobs-to-be-done, platform, what you want to be known for — produces better, more creative solutions and removes decisions. He uses a point-of-sale example: choosing sit-down restaurants vs. a taco truck, or 'speed over data consistency,' unlocks the team.

  • PM draws the perimeter; engineers and designers fill the box to its max
  • Add as many reasonable constraints as possible to unlock creative solutions
  • Useful constraints: customer segment, jobs-to-be-done, platform availability, what you want to be known for
  • Constraints remove decisions — 'the best decision is no decision'
  • Example: telling engineers 'speed over real-time data consistency' unlocks huge freedom

you should be adding as many constraints as reasonable in order to let engineers and designers come up with the most creative solutions for whatever…

Kevin Yien · 29:00
#product-management#constraints#team-collaboration
Explainer32:00

The Silent-Read Meeting: Force Focused Feedback Instead of Async Slack Silence

A Square-ism (borrowed from Amazon): instead of dropping a doc in Slack and begging for comments, book a 20-minute meeting where everyone silently reads and comments while the author responds to comments in real time. The tight latency between a question and the author's reply speeds the whole cycle. Kevin frames it as real work getting done in a meeting, and a classic case of moving slower to move faster.

  • Async 'please review my doc' requests usually get ignored
  • Book focused time where people read and comment in real time and the author responds live
  • Real-time comment-to-answer latency accelerates the feedback-iteration cycle
  • It's 'moving slower to move faster' — and a meeting where actual work happens

there is a lot of value to saying I need 20 minutes of focused time to interrogate something that I've done and we're not going…

Kevin Yien · 32:30
#feedback#meetings#collaboration

Story· 5

Story22:00

Spending a Week on a Menu Animation at Square

Building Square's restaurant point-of-sale, Kevin and a designer spent a literal week fine-tuning the milliseconds of a menu-group tap animation — because it made the difference between a fast bartender's muscle memory and a first-time worker's learnability. They brought real servers and bartenders in with iPad prototypes and watched for hesitation or flinches when the animation felt too slow. He pushed the launch date three times, arguing the deliverable mattered more than an artificial GA date.

  • A menu-group pop-in animation determined how easily restaurants adopted the POS
  • They tested with real servers and bartenders, watching for hesitation caused by slow animation
  • The product had to serve both muscle-memory experts and first-time users equally
  • Kevin pushed the launch three times because the deliverable mattered more than the deadline
  • A PM can't wave off details as 'not my responsibility' — the final deliverable is fully on you

a designer and myself spent like literally an entire week just fine-tuning how many milliseconds it would take to pop in and out so that…

Kevin Yien · 23:30

it's easy I think for a PM to say that's not my responsibility I Define the requirements

Kevin Yien · 24:00
#design#square#craft#user-testing
Story38:30

Calling Shopify's Shop App Flywheel — and Having It Loop Back

A concrete decision-log example: when Shopify launched the Shop app for package tracking, Kevin drew a flywheel diagram showing how they were quietly hijacking consumer buying behavior to build an Amazon competitor, and tweeted it. Roughly 60 Shopify employees followed him, and years later people who worked on it confirmed he'd nailed the thesis — though their internal reasoning differed slightly from his while reaching the same outcome. It shows the log's payoff: writing down rationale, then having reality feed back to sharpen your model.

  • Kevin diagrammed and tweeted his thesis on Shopify's Shop app as a consumer-buying flywheel
  • ~60 Shopify employees followed him afterward
  • Insiders later confirmed the thesis was right, though their reasons differed from his
  • Broadcasting a decision-log entry can make reality loop back and correct your model

there must have been like 60 Shopify employees that followed me I was like what the hell is this guy talking about

Kevin Yien · 39:30
#decision-making#shopify#product-strategy
Story47:00

The 'Unsell' Email: Front-Load Every Reason Not to Join

Born from failure — hires leaving within six months, surprised by the reality — Kevin's unsell email arrives at offer stage with no more than eight bullet points listing all the gnarly things a candidate will discover, calibrated to fears they hinted at but never said. If they read it all and are still equally excited, hire them; if it gives them pause, better to part ways now than lose them at month six. It cost him 30% of candidates at offer stage and enraged recruiters, but he kept sending it.

  • Sent at offer stage, max eight bullets of the honest downsides
  • Calibrated to unspoken fears you pick up during the process (e.g. work-life balance for a parent)
  • If they're still excited after reading it, hire; if not, part ways now rather than at 6 months
  • It lost 30% of candidates at offer stage and upset recruiters, but he refused to move it earlier or drop it
  • The email is a conversation opener, not a yes/no — you then bend over backwards for strong hires

when I first instituted this I lost 30% of candidates at offer stage oh wow which drove my recruiting Partners insane

Kevin Yien · 50:00

if you can tell them that upfront and they can read that whole email and still be equally excited to join

Kevin Yien · 49:30
#hiring#management#recruiting
Story1:02:30

'Did I Draw That?' — Kevin's Daughter and the AI-as-Crayon Moment

When Midjourney's early beta dropped on a Saturday, Kevin let his seven-year-old daughter type a prompt — 'unicorn prancing in a field' — which produced a hideous, demon-flanked, two-rear-ended unicorn. He braced for her disappointment, but she was in awe and asked, 'did I draw that?' The word 'draw' stuck with him: to her, an image-generation model is no different from a crayon. He uses it as his touchstone for how unknowably far AI will reshape what a good product looks like.

  • His daughter used Midjourney's early beta and asked 'did I draw that?'
  • To her, an image-generation model is the same as a crayon — no conceptual difference
  • A child raised on LLMs will define good products in ways we can't yet comprehend
  • As a parent, Kevin gets a 'cheat code' to watch how kids adopt these tools in real time

did I draw that like yeah I I guess you did and the thing that I got hung up on was that she used the…

Kevin Yien · 1:04:00

the concept of these image generation models is the same as a crayon to her like there is no difference in her mind

Kevin Yien · 1:04:30
#ai#parenting#product-future
Story1:06:00

Finding Swagger: Getting Laid Off With a Baby on the Way

Kevin's hardest story: laid off in round four of rolling cuts from his first title-PM job while his wife was nine months pregnant with their first child. Beyond the financial fear, his identity crumbled — 'I thought I was a product manager, this is evidence I am not.' Through reflection he reached a reframe he still returns to: there's a difference between you not being good at something and a company not needing that thing right now, or you being good but not in the way that company operates. He wrote it up in a post titled 'Finding Swagger.'

  • Laid off round four while his wife was nine months pregnant
  • The deeper blow was to identity: 'I thought I was a product manager; this is evidence I am not'
  • Reframe: being bad at something vs. a company not needing that thing, or not needing it your way
  • The same person who can't make it work at Company A often thrives at Company B — often just environment fit
  • He wrote the post 'Finding Swagger' mostly as a reminder to himself

in the moment all I could think was I thought I was a product manager

Kevin Yien · 1:07:00

there is a difference between you not being good at something and a business or company not needing that thing at a particular moment

Kevin Yien · 1:08:30
#failure#career#identity#layoffs

Tool· 1

Tool55:00

Automating User Research: userinterviews.com, Gong, and Zapier

Kevin shares a concrete B2B stack for keeping a steady stream of customer conversations without running a manual program. userinterviews.com sources your exact ICP so you just approve or reject. Treat your sales team as a research team: set Gong alerts on key terms/competitors, which post transcript excerpts plus customer names to Slack, then use Zapier + customer.io to auto-email those customers with a Calendly link — interviews land on your calendar automatically. He credits Beth Hills for building the system.

  • userinterviews.com sources your exact ICP for B2B; you just review yes/no
  • Your sales team is a research team — ignoring that misses half the value
  • Gong alerts on terms/competitors post excerpts + customer names to Slack
  • Zapier + customer.io auto-emails those customers a Calendly link to book interviews
  • System credited to Beth Hills, a PM Kevin hired at Mutiny

there's this thing called userinterviews.com shout out to them they're pretty much user testing but like explicitly focused on B2B

Kevin Yien · 56:00

your sales team is a research team and if you don't view them that way you are missing out on half the value

Kevin Yien · 56:30
#user-research#tools#automation#b2b

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway11:00

Want to Be a Great PM? Start as an Engineer, Designer, or Salesperson

Kevin's advice for aspiring PMs is to first do one of the three jobs whose responsibilities you'd eventually take over: engineer, designer, or salesperson. He defends sales specifically — the best salespeople are the best listeners at understanding a customer's problem and translating it. Doing one of these roles gives you a unique foundation, and realizing you'll never be world-class at it is often the healthy nudge toward PM.

  • Do the job of the people you'd be taking PM responsibilities from first
  • The foundational three: engineer, designer, or salesperson
  • Best salespeople are the best listeners and problem-understanders, not quota-chasers
  • Reframe 'I'm not world-class here' as 'I might be world-class at this other thing' rather than settling

the best listeners the best people at understanding the problem that the customer is having and then Translating that into what you can do for…

Kevin Yien · 11:30
#career#product-management#sales
Takeaway35:00

Keep a Decision Log to Build Product Sense

Kevin demystifies 'product sense' as simply making good decisions with insufficient data — and the way to get better is more reps. Since your own job gives you limited decisions, he suggests logging predictions about what other teams and companies would do, then checking the outcomes a year later. It's free, almost no one does it, and it turns the market into a source of decision reps.

  • Product sense = making good decisions with insufficient data
  • Getting better means more decision reps, with documented rationale and observed outcomes
  • Manufacture reps by predicting other teams'/companies' decisions and checking a year later
  • It's free and almost no one takes the time to do it

PMS need as many reps as possible in making decisions documenting the rationale behind those decisions and then crucially seeing the outcome of them

Kevin Yien · 36:30

a year later see what they've shipped like you can just do this for anyone it's free and no one takes the time to do…

Kevin Yien · 37:00
#decision-making#product-sense#habits