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Melanie Perkins02 November 2025

The woman behind Canva shares how she built a $42B company from nothing

8Frameworks
15Insights

Episode overview

Canva CEO and co-founder Melanie Perkins explains how “column B” thinking starts with imagining an ambitious future and then working backward through small, concrete steps. She describes operationalizing that approach through crazy big goals, mission pillars, vision decks, customer feedback, and Canva's “chaos to clarity” process. Perkins also recounts more than 100 investor rejections, a two-year front-end rewrite, Canva's AI expansion, and the company's two-step plan to build enormous value while doing as much good as possible.

Key ideas

  • Start with a vivid, desirable long-term future, then work backward through small steps that compound toward it.
  • Move ideas from chaos to clarity by writing them down, refining pitch decks, creating designs, and building prototypes.
  • Break a broad mission into concrete pillars and successive goals, then celebrate meaningful milestones with the team.
  • Treat rejection as actionable feedback: Canva repeatedly strengthened its pitch while keeping the underlying vision consistent.
  • At each stage of growth, redesign systems in a way that remains authentic to the company instead of importing another company's practices wholesale.
  • Balance future-facing product bets with systematic community requests, loop-closing, and frequent user testing.
  • Integrate AI where it genuinely reduces friction between a user's idea and the finished work, then refine it through customer feedback.
  • Canva's two-step plan links building one of the world's most valuable companies with using that value to do the most good possible.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Peak Performance3 steps

All-In / All-Out Delineation

Full intensity when working, full disconnection when not — to keep bringing your best.

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Innovation3 steps

Chaos to Clarity

Move any big idea from your head to reality one clarity-adding step at a time.

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Productivity4 steps

Closing the Loop with Community

Systematically collect, route, ship, and close every customer request as a product engine.

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Strategy3 steps

Column B Thinking

Plan from the dream future backward, not from the bricks in front of you.

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Leadership4 steps

Crazy Big Goals with a Ladder to the Moon

Set an inadequacy-inducing goal, then climb toward it one tiny rung at a time.

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Leadership4 steps

Goal-Driven Company Structure

Cascade a mission into pillars into yearly goals so the work you fund IS the mission.

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Strategy4 steps

Problem-Centered Wedge

Ignore competitors; find an unsolved painpoint people will pay to fix, then expand.

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Communication4 steps

Rejection-as-Refinement Pitching

Treat every investor 'no' as free feedback and pre-answer it in your next deck.

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People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 7

  • Melanie PerkinsMentionsToday, my guest is Melanie Perkins, CEO and co-founder of Canva.

    “Today, my guest is Melanie Perkins, CEO and co-founder of Canva.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • Cameron AdamsMentionsA huge thank you to Cameron Adams and Melissa Tan for suggesting topics for this conversation.

    “A huge thank you to Cameron Adams and Melissa Tan for suggesting topics for this conversation.”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • Brian CheskyMentionsBrian chesky at Airbnb there was a whole article where we unpacked this moment in their product development cycle

    “this is exactly the way actually Brian Chesky thought I worked at Airbnb for a long time”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • Ed CatmullCoinedthe book Creativity Inc. by I think Ed Catmull where he talks about how new ideas are this ugly baby

    “the book Creativity Inc. by I think Ed Catmull where he talks about how new ideas are this ugly baby”

    ▶ Watch at ~13:00approx.
  • Elon MuskMentionsWhether you like him or not, Elon, this is similar to his um if you watch him, he has sets these really ambitious goals

    “Whether you like him or not, Elon, this is similar to his um if you watch him, he has sets these really ambitious goals”

    ▶ Watch at ~20:00approx.
  • Cliff ObrechtMentionsCliff and I owned um, a little over 30% of Canva.

    “Cliff and I owned um, a little over 30% of Canva.”

    ▶ Watch at ~41:30approx.
  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    “Thank you so much, Lenny, for having me and your great wellressearched questions.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:05:30approx.

Resources · 20

  • Lenny's NewsletterMentionsnewsletter · Lenny Rachitsky

    “Head on over to Lenny's newsletter.com and click product pass.”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
  • AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk

    “this is exactly the way actually Brian Chesky thought I worked at Airbnb for a long time”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • Fusion BooksCoinedcompany · Melanie Perkins and Cliff Obrecht

    “we then took that concept and applied it to the school yearbook market in Australia uh with our first company, Fusion Books.”

    ▶ Watch at ~7:30approx.
  • CanvaCoinedcompany · Melanie Perkins, Cliff Obrecht, and Cameron Adams

    “And then we applied it to Canva uh where we wanted to take it much much bigger.”

    ▶ Watch at ~8:00approx.link ↗
  • Creativity, Inc.Mentionsbook · Ed Catmull and Amy Wallace

    “This makes me think about this concept of an ugly baby from the book Creativity Inc. by I think Ed Catmull”

    ▶ Watch at ~13:00approx.
  • The Lean StartupMentionsbook · Eric Ries

    “I remember pitching an investor that had the lean startup book on their on behind them when they were when I was pitching them”

    ▶ Watch at ~30:00approx.
  • UserTestingUsessoftware · UserTesting

    “Yeah, we use a lot of user testing.com. I find that super super valuable.”

    ▶ Watch at ~40:30approx.
  • Canva FoundationUsescompany · Canva

    “we're doing all of our donating through the Canva Foundation.”

    ▶ Watch at ~41:30approx.
  • GiveDirectlyUsescompany

    “We've just over the last few years we've um donated $50 million to give directly where they give money directly to people in Malawi”

    ▶ Watch at ~41:30approx.
  • AdobeMentionscompany

    “There's always this like Figma and Adobe and then there's Canva”

    ▶ Watch at ~50:00approx.
  • FigmaMentionssoftware · Figma

    “There's always this like Figma and Adobe and then there's Canva”

    ▶ Watch at ~50:00approx.
  • Canva DocsUsessoftware · Canva

    “directly into Canva Docs and then I actually just do the brain dump into Canva Docs and then just um do like summarize it.”

    ▶ Watch at ~55:00approx.
  • Apple NotesUsessoftware · Apple

    “I might use um Apple Notes or directly into Canva Docs”

    ▶ Watch at ~55:00approx.
  • Designing the ObviousRecommendsbook · Robert Hoekman Jr.

    “one of the books early on I read was Designing the Obvious, which I found very insightful.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00:30approx.
  • The Power of MomentsRecommendsbook · Chip Heath and Dan Heath

    “One of the books I love is The Power of Moments.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00:30approx.
  • CalmUsessoftware · Calm.com, Inc.

    “I love the car app. It is my daily companion. I use it to meditate. I, you know, use it to listen to music.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00:30approx.
  • LinkedInUseswebsite · LinkedIn

    “So, you can find me on LinkedIn. That's where I post the most.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:04:00approx.
  • Canva World TourMentionsevent · Canva

    “we're doing a Canva world tour in through October”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:04:30approx.
  • CanvaUsescompany · Melanie Perkins, Cliff Obrecht, and Cameron Adams

    “use Canva, spread Canva, teach Canva.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:04:30approx.link ↗
  • Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take50:30

Ignore Competitors, Find the Gap: Canva's Problem-Centered Wedge

On finding an early wedge, Perkins says one of the most important things Canva did was not worry about competitors at all and instead look for a gap in the market it could uniquely fill. With their first company they solved yearbook design for coordinators with no design experience, learning pain points from every customer. Her rule: solve a real, paid-for problem, and better to solve a small group's problem well than a large group's poorly.

  • Canva didn't worry about competitors, it looked for an unfilled gap
  • First company solved yearbook design by talking to every customer
  • A school asking to design newsletters signaled the broader opportunity
  • Take a problem-centered approach, not a solution looking for a problem
  • Better to solve a small group's problem well than a large group's poorly

“we didn't really worry about competitors at all we actually just saw where is there a gap in the market that we can uniquely fill”

Melanie Perkins · 50:30

“it's better to solve a small number of people's problem really well than trying to solve a large number of people's problem not very well…”

Melanie Perkins · 52:00
#strategy#product-market-fit#founders#canva
Hot Take52:30

Don't Add AI Just Because Investors Like It

Perkins' philosophy on AI is to integrate it only where it genuinely helps customers get work done, then listen to the community and refine. She pushes back on the idea that AI being 'all the rage' with investors means it belongs front and center. For Canva, reducing friction between an idea and a design made AI a natural fit, so much so that they were trying to do AI before it was a thing, visible even in their 2012 deck.

  • Integrate AI only where it genuinely helps customers achieve goals
  • AI being popular with investors is not a reason to put it front and center
  • Then listen to the community and refine from there
  • Canva was trying to do AI before AI was a thing, back to the 2012 deck

“Just because AI is all the rage and investors really like AI doesn't necessarily mean it should be front and center”

Melanie Perkins · 53:00

“We were trying to do AI before AI was actually a thing”

Melanie Perkins · 53:30
#ai#product#strategy#canva
Hot Take1:02:00

'Everything Good Was Once Imagined'

Perkins shares two mottos she keeps coming back to. One: happiness is when what you think, say, and do are in harmony. The other, which she says Canva will be repeating a lot, is that everything good was once imagined, because if you don't imagine something you can't will it into existence, and everything great we experience in life was first imagined.

  • Motto: happiness is when what you think, say, and do are in harmony
  • She's obsessed with the idea that everything is led by imagination
  • Imagination is the first step of the creative process
  • Everything great we experience in life was first imagined

“happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony”

Melanie Perkins · 1:02:30

“everything great that we experience in life was first imagined.”

Melanie Perkins · 1:02:30
#philosophy#mindset#quotes#canva

Explainer· 1

Explainer38:00

Closing the Loop: A Million Community Requests a Year

Canva runs a formal process to source product ideas from its community, receiving more than a million requests a year that a dedicated team tallies and routes to product teams. This year they've 'closed' more than 200 loops, from small features like gradient text to big products like Sheets. A notable case: teachers requested AI tools Canva had withheld from classrooms, so Canva added safety controls and unlocked them.

  • More than a million community requests come in each year
  • A dedicated team tallies, breaks down, and routes requests to product teams
  • More than 200 loops closed this year, from gradient text to the Sheets product
  • Each shipped request is assumed to be wanted by far more people who never filed one
  • Teachers' requests led Canva to unlock AI tools with added safety controls

“we get more than a million requests from our community every year”

Melanie Perkins · 38:00

“this year we've closed more than 200 loops”

Melanie Perkins · 38:30
#product#community#feedback#canva

Story· 5

Story23:30

The 2-Year Rewrite Where a Product Company Couldn't Ship Product

Canva undertook a front-end rewrite they expected to take six months so they could support cross-platform, right-to-left languages, and more than five simultaneous editors. It ended up taking two years, during which the product company shipped no new product. Perkins describes it as a dark tunnel with no visible end, but essential work that later enabled 2,500 engineers to build things that would otherwise have been infeasible.

  • The rewrite was estimated at six months and took two years
  • It was critical for cross-platform, right-to-left languages, and simultaneous collaboration
  • The old codebase limited them to five people working in the editor at once
  • Shipping and customer feedback is a core team motivation, so two years without it felt like a dark tunnel
  • The work later enabled 2,500 engineers to deliver previously infeasible features

“we thought it was going to take six months and then it took two years”

Melanie Perkins · 23:30

“A product company not shipping product [laughter] is not really a recipe for fun”

Melanie Perkins · 25:00
#engineering#product#scaling#canva
Story25:30

The Rubber-Duck Game Board That Got the Team Through the Rewrite

To keep morale up through the grueling two-year rewrite, Perkins turned progress into a game. Each component was represented by a rubber-duck bath toy on a board with stages, including an emergency lane and a 'home and hosed' finish. Weekly standups had everyone report where their bath toy was, making a distressing period partly fun and bonding.

  • Components were represented as rubber-duck bath toys on a physical board
  • The board had stages including an emergency lane and a 'home and hosed' end
  • Weekly standups tracked where each toy was
  • The gamification made a distressing period partly fun and team-bonding while investors worried

“I bought these little like rubber ducky sort of bath toys”

Melanie Perkins · 25:30

“It was bonding let's say.”

Melanie Perkins · 26:00
#team#morale#management#canva
Story26:30

How 100+ Investor Rejections Made the Pitch Deck Stronger

Perkins was rejected by over 100 investors when raising Canva's first round. Rather than take it personally, she treated each objection as feedback and added a new slide to answer it, so 'market's not big enough' and 'you're the same as another company' each got pre-answered. The rejection-driven refinement produced a 2012 pitch deck she says still captures what Canva is doing today.

  • Over 100 investors said no to the first raise
  • Each objection became a new slide that pre-answered future skeptics
  • Early decks were solution-first; feedback pushed them to lead with the problem
  • The core vision stayed consistent even as the articulation changed greatly
  • The refined 2012 pitch deck still holds up today

“It was really clear in my mind that it was the future and I thought the investors were wrong, frankly.”

Melanie Perkins · 27:00

“their feedback made us stronger and made our pitch deck stronger”

Melanie Perkins · 27:30
#fundraising#pitch#resilience#canva
Story20:00

Smashing Greek Plates and Releasing Doves to Celebrate Big Goals

Canva couples its crazy big goals with deliberately fun celebrations tied to a moment in time. Over the years these have included smashing Greek plates, releasing doves, and holding a tomatina festival. Perkins argues that pausing to celebrate each milestone matters because always plodding toward the top of the mountain without patting yourself on the back would feel arduous.

  • Big goals are coupled with fun celebrations at a fixed moment in time
  • Celebrations have included smashing Greek plates, releasing doves, and a tomatina festival
  • You celebrate what you want everyone to focus on
  • Taking the moment keeps a long mission from feeling arduous

“we have smashed Greek plates and released doves and had a little automatina festival”

Melanie Perkins · 20:30
#culture#team#goals#canva
Story40:30

Giving 30% of Canva Away: The GiveDirectly Bet

Perkins and co-founder Cliff pledged roughly 30% of Canva, their ownership stake, to do the most good they can. Through the Canva Foundation they've donated $50 million to GiveDirectly, which gives cash directly to people in extreme poverty in Malawi, and announced another $100 million over four years. Combined with free education and nonprofit products, Canva is giving away about $1.5 billion of product a year. For Perkins, getting rich is a means to an end.

  • Perkins and Cliff pledged ~30% of Canva to do the most good
  • $50 million donated via the Canva Foundation to GiveDirectly in Malawi
  • Another $100 million announced over the next four years
  • Combined with free education and nonprofit products, ~$1.5 billion of product given away a year
  • Canva also took the 1% pledge in its early days

“we've um donated $50 million to give directly where they give money directly to people in Malawi who are in extreme poverty”

Melanie Perkins · 41:30

“getting really rich is not a goal unto itself whatsoever. It's a means to an end.”

Melanie Perkins · 44:00
#philanthropy#mission#values#canva

Q&A· 1

Q&A29:30

Perkins' Fundraising Advice: Control What You Can, Find Your Tribe

Asked what she tells founders struggling to raise, Perkins says to convert rejection into things you can control, your pitch deck and how many people you talk to, rather than taking it personally. Some investors will never get it; she once pitched someone with the Lean Startup book behind them who was never going to like Canva. The goal is to find the people who do connect with what you're building.

  • Turn rejection into things you can control: the deck and the number of people you pitch
  • Don't take rejection personally; ask how you can help someone understand it
  • Some investors will never get it, and that's okay
  • Find your tribe of people who like what you're trying to do

“I can control my pitch deck. I can control the number of people I'm speaking to and I just spoke to literally everyone.”

Melanie Perkins · 30:00

“there's some people that are just going to never like you and that's okay”

Melanie Perkins · 30:30
#fundraising#advice#founders#canva

Tool· 3

Tool39:30

usertesting.com and the Power of 10 Random People

Perkins has personally run hundreds if not thousands of user tests, watching for hesitations and confusion when people use the product. She's struck by how ten random people from the internet can give feedback representative of a huge user base. Her recommended tool for this is usertesting.com, and she notes people are more frank testing alone with just their camera.

  • Perkins has personally run hundreds to thousands of user tests
  • Watch for where people hesitate or don't understand a button
  • Ten random people online can give feedback representative of many users
  • Recommended tool: usertesting.com
  • People are more frank when testing alone with only their camera

“It's amazing to me how you can find 10 random people on the internet and they can give such astute feedback”

Melanie Perkins · 39:30

“we use a lot of user testing.com. I find that super super valuable.”

Melanie Perkins · 40:30
#product#user-testing#tools#canva
Tool53:30

The 'AI Walk': Talking Out Your Thoughts to Get Perspective

Perkins' favorite personal AI use is an 'AI walk': she puts in her earpods, walks, and says everything on her mind, then uses AI to filter thoughts and figure out what needs action. It helps her get out of the weeds and think from a more macro perspective instead of reacting to Slack and email. For capture she uses Apple Notes or dictates straight into Canva Docs and summarizes the brain dump.

  • AI is the first place she goes to explore a new idea
  • The 'AI walk': speak everything on your mind while walking, then filter with AI
  • It helps escape the weeds and think from a macro vantage point
  • She captures via Apple Notes or dictating into Canva Docs, then summarizes

“another really fun thing I do um is an AI walk and it's when I just put my um ear pods in and then I…”

Melanie Perkins · 54:30
#ai#productivity#habits#canva
Tool1:00:00

Melanie Perkins' Book Recommendations

In the lightning round, Perkins names the two books she recommends most: The Power of Moments and Designing the Obvious, which she read early on and found very insightful.

  • The Power of Moments
  • Designing the Obvious, read early on and found very insightful

“The Power of Moments and um one of the books early on I read was Designing the Obvious, which I found very insightful”

Melanie Perkins · 1:00:30
#books#recommendations#canva

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway31:00

Don't Borrow Other Companies' Bricks

Perkins repeatedly saw the temptation to copy how bigger companies do things, and often it didn't work for Canva. She likens it to taking bricks from someone else's house and sticking them in yours, where they won't match. Her lesson is to build what's authentic to your own company and reinvent your systems for each new stage of scale rather than buying something off the shelf.

  • Copying a bigger company's playbook often didn't work for Canva
  • Borrowed practices are like mismatched bricks from another house
  • Confidence in doing things your own way is a constant work in progress
  • Systems must be reimagined for the next layer of scale, not bought off the shelf

“it's kind of like building a house that you want every brick in the house to match.”

Melanie Perkins · 31:30

“And if you go and try and take some bricks from someone else's house and stick it in your house, it's probably going to not…”

Melanie Perkins · 31:30
#leadership#culture#scaling#canva
Takeaway36:00

No Email or Slack on Her Phone: How Perkins Protects Focus

After years of working seven days a week round the clock, Perkins realized that pace isn't good for anyone's health. She now keeps no email or Slack on her phone, so closing her laptop means genuinely tuning out; a real issue comes as an emergency call. Her rule is to be all in when working and all out when not, because stepping away gives perspective and prevents working hard on the wrong thing.

  • Early on she worked seven days a week round the clock
  • She keeps no email or Slack on her phone
  • A real issue reaches her via an emergency call or page
  • Rule: all in when working, all out when not
  • Stepping away prevents working hard on the wrong thing

“I don't have email or Slack on my phone and so when I shut my laptop, I actually tune out”

Melanie Perkins · 37:00

“when I'm working, I'm all in. And then when I'm not working, I'm all out.”

Melanie Perkins · 37:30
#habits#productivity#wellbeing#canva