Melissa addresses the fear that product ops will strip work away from PMs. Her argument: product ops informs decisions but never makes them, so what it actually removes is the operational grind, like learning MongoDB just to pull your own data. She frames PMs as being so busy fighting to get data and line up interviews that they have no time to do their real job.

Product ops does not take decision-making rights from the PM, it exists to inform them
Melissa once had to learn MongoDB at OpenSky just to measure her features, then never used it again
The operational work (SQL queries, setting up interviews) doesn't help you make product decisions
The role is meant to be liberating and free PMs from busywork, not add overhead

“Product operations does not take away decision-making rights from the product manager. It's there to inform them.”
Melissa Perri · 09:30

“I'm fighting these fights to get the things that I need to do my job correctly that I don't have time to do my job…”
Melissa Perri · 10:30

#product ops#product management#career#burnout

Hot Take37:30

Is an Ops Role Just a Sign Software Should Do the Job?

Responding to Casey Winters' view that ops roles often signal inefficiency that software could someday fix, Melissa argues product ops won't fully disappear but should stay deliberately lean. A product-management mindset fits the role because it constantly asks how to use tools and systems to fill gaps, standardize, and let processes run themselves rather than throwing bodies at the problem.

The role won't become fully obsolete; you still need people overseeing programs
A well-run product ops team is lean, not thousands of people
A PM mindset fits because it asks how software, tools, and frameworks can standardize the work
Someone must keep the internal 'products for the product team' relevant as things change

“You still need people to oversee those programs. So, I don't think they would fully be obsolete.”
Melissa Perri · 38:00

“I think you're doing it wrong if you're doing that, right?”
Melissa Perri · 38:30

#product ops#hot take#efficiency#tooling

Hot Take42:30

Don't Staff Product Ops With Agile Coaches

Melissa warns against a common shortcut: putting Agile coaches into the process and governance pillar. Coaches who were never product managers tend to revert to Scrum optimization and running stand-ups, rather than doing the real job of improving product-management processes like roadmap reviews and executive-level communication.

Agile coaches who were never PMs will revert to Agile processes and Scrum optimization
The process pillar person needs a genuine product-management background
The real work is deciding who's in roadmap reviews, what inputs are needed, and what decisions come out
Executive communication means not digging into Jira in front of a CEO

“we don't usually need another Agile coach telling us how to run a stand-up.”
Melissa Perri · 43:30

#product ops#hiring#hot take#process

Explainer· 3

Explainer04:00

Product Ops Went From Nonexistent to Half of Scaling Companies

The guests describe how product operations went from a role almost nobody had five years ago to one about half of scaling tech companies now staff. Melissa traces its roots to big companies like Uber (via Blake Samic, who later took it to Stripe and OpenAI) and to her own work at Athenahealth. Both guests use their teaching cohorts as an informal gauge of adoption.

Companies cited as having product ops include OpenAI, Uber, Stripe, Ramp, and Deel
Blake Samic started product ops at Uber and repeated it at Stripe and OpenAI
In Melissa's CPO cohorts of ~20-25 people, at least half have someone doing product-ops work
Denise's masterclass students went from ~60% 'product-ops curious' in 2020 to ~60% already having it
Pendo began talking about product ops around 2019, which is when it picked up steam

“Out of like the 20 25 people that we'll have in a cohort, I'd say at least half of them have somebody doing something product…”
Melissa Perri · 05:30

#product ops#product management#org design#scaling

Explainer12:00

The Three Pillars That Structure Any Product Ops Function

Denise lays out the three-pillar model the book is organized around: business and data insights (quantitative), customer and market insights (qualitative), and process and practices. Which pillar matters most depends entirely on where a company's biggest opportunities and challenges sit.

Pillar 1: business and data insights, the quantitative side (engagement, revenue inputs)
Pillar 2: customer and market insights, the qualitative side (finding and synthesizing customer voices)
Pillar 3: process and practices, how the business builds product
The right emphasis depends on the company's needs and biggest gaps

“And finally, the third pillar is is process and practices.”
Denise Tilles · 12:00

#product ops#framework#operating model

Explainer30:30

Product Ops Monitors the Health of the Product, Not Just the Business

Melissa distinguishes company-level business metrics from product-level insight. Board metrics like ARR and net retention track the health of the business, but product ops applies a product lens: ARR by customer segment, by product line, adoption by feature set. Slicing metrics this way is what turns raw numbers into strategic insight for leaders and executives, not just PMs.

Business metrics (ARR, retention, net retention) monitor the health of the business
Product ops asks how to monitor the health of the product
The value comes from cutting metrics by segment, product line, and feature adoption
These insights let leaders actually verify whether a strategy (e.g. moving upmarket) is working

“where product ops comes into play and business data and insights is how do we monitor the health of our product?”
Melissa Perri · 31:00

“AR is interesting to me, but it's not as interesting to me as AR by customer segment, right?”
Melissa Perri · 31:00

#product ops#metrics#strategy#analytics

Story· 1

Story1:00:00

How Product Ops Was Born at Athenahealth

Melissa tells the origin story of discovering product ops at Athenahealth, an ~$8B market cap health-records company with 360+ product managers and 5,000 developers. After training everyone, problems emerged that training couldn't fix, like the CEO digging through Jira to understand what teams were building. They created a VP of product operations, built portfolio roadmap views and OKR dashboards, and the role survived multiple restructurings and a take-private.

Athenahealth had 360+ product managers and 5,000 software developers on a massive platform
Some problems couldn't be solved by training PMs, which sparked the need for product ops
They created a VP of product operations; a process-oriented PM moved into the role
They built portfolio roadmap views and OKR dashboards for executive visibility
Product ops survived the company going private and multiple restructurings

“We also realized we had way too many product managers. Like just way too many product managers.”
Melissa Perri · 1:01:00

“their current chief product officer is uh said that he will never go anywhere else that doesn't have product ops.”
Melissa Perri · 1:07:30

#product ops#case study#athenahealth#scaling

Q&A· 1

Q&A47:30

Hire an Experienced Product Ops Person, or Coach Someone Up?

Asked whether to hire someone who's already done product ops, Melissa ties the answer to time and coaching capacity. If you have time to coach and the person is self-directed, you can take someone with the right skill set and teach them. If you have no time and need value fast, hire someone who's done it before and can hit the ground running, then let them build the function.

If you can coach and the person is self-directed, take someone with the right skills and teach them
If you have no time and no coaching capacity, hire someone experienced who can hit the ground running
The same logic applies to hiring product leaders and product managers generally
Decide based on how fast you need value and how much coaching is available

“if you're not on a timeline to actually like teach these people these things and get them up to speed, then you need somebody to…”
Melissa Perri · 50:00

#product ops#hiring#leadership#coaching

Tool· 3

Tool55:00

The Interview Question: What Did You Hate Enough to Automate?

Melissa offers an interview question she thinks is ideal for any product ops role: ask candidates about a process they hated in their job and how they built a system or automation to fix it. It surfaces the core product-ops instinct to operationalize and improve rather than tolerate broken processes.

Ask candidates about a process they hated and automated or systematized away
The signal is a drive to operationalize and build systems to fix problems
This applies across all three product ops pillars
Good product ops people naturally say 'I can build a system to fix this'

“it's like tell me about some kind of process or some kind of thing that you had to do in your job that you really…”
Melissa Perri · 55:00

#hiring#interview questions#product ops

Tool1:09:30

The Books These Product Leaders Recommend Most

In the lightning round, the guests share their most-recommended books. Beyond Melissa's own Escaping the Build Trap, Denise recommends Traffic by Ben Smith on the rise of HuffPo and Gawker, and Melissa champions The Art of Action as a sleeper hit on strategy deployment, plus Teresa Torres's Continuous Discovery Habits.

Escaping the Build Trap by Melissa Perri
Traffic by Ben Smith, about the growth of HuffPo and Gawker
The Art of Action, a strategy book on how well strategy is deployed and where the gaps are
Continuous Discovery Habits by Teresa Torres

“Another one that I recommend is called Traffic. It came out this year by Ben Smith.”
Denise Tilles · 1:09:30

“The Art of Action, I think is a fantastic book on strategy, and I always I always recommend this to people.”
Melissa Perri · 1:10:00

#books#recommendations#strategy#product management

Tool1:12:30

The Product Tools They Love: Dragonboat, Dovetail, Distilled

The guests name products they admire. Melissa recommends Dragonboat, a portfolio tool that sits on top of Jira to roll up roadmaps (she's on their advisory board), and Dovetail, a research repository now layering AI on top of past research. Denise points to Distilled, a single workspace connecting strategy, discovery, and delivery visually.

Dragonboat sits on top of Jira and rolls everything up into a portfolio view
Dovetail is a research repository adding AI to generate insights from past research
Distilled is a single workspace connecting strategy, discovery, and delivery visually

“And after that, I discovered Dragonboat, and I'm now on their advisory board.”
Melissa Perri · 1:12:30

“I guess the one I would mention is Distilled.”
Denise Tilles · 1:13:30

#tools#software#product ops#recommendations

Takeaway· 5

Takeaway13:00

High-Growth Startups Start With Data, Enterprises Start With Process

Melissa gives a rule of thumb for which pillar to lead with based on company stage. High-growth companies typically begin with business data and insights so they can monitor performance and get strategic inputs. Larger enterprises in transformation usually start with process and governance because they lack a product operating model, while the customer and market insights pillar remains the underinvested 'squishy middle.'

High-growth companies start with business data and insights to monitor and get strategic inputs
Enterprises in transformation start with process and governance because they lack the infrastructure to run good product
Jira alone can't roll roadmaps up for a CPO; you need a portfolio tool for transparency
Customer and market insights is the 'squishy middle' and an area for growth in many companies

“So, we usually see that high-growth companies start with business data and insights and make sure that they have they can actually monitor what they're…”
Melissa Perri · 13:00

#product ops#strategy#org design#operating model

Takeaway24:30

The Things a PM Must Never Hand to Product Ops

Melissa draws a hard line around what stays with the product manager. Decision rights, prioritization, and hard trade-off conversations are non-negotiable PM ownership. Product ops can operationalize and point you toward customers, but it doesn't tell you what to build, doesn't police developers, and doesn't handle tough stakeholder negotiations.

Never outsource decision-making to a product ops person
Product ops can automate finding and contacting customers, but the PM does the actual research and decisions
Product ops are not project managers watching developers hit deadlines
PMs retain strategy, vision, prioritization, resource allocation, and hard trade-off conversations

“They don't want to offload decision rights. You should never be like outsourcing your decision making to a product ops person.”
Melissa Perri · 24:30

“They're not going to handle hard stakeholder conversations about trade-offs for you.”
Melissa Perri · 26:00

#product ops#product management#decision rights#ownership

Takeaway39:30

If You're at a 1-to-1 Product Ops Ratio, You're Doing It Wrong

Melissa rejects the idea of one product ops person per PM. A hybrid model with data people embedded at the director or VP level is a stopgap symptom of poorly instrumented data. Once data is well instrumented and PMs can self-serve queries, the ratio can go way up and the team stays small.

A one-to-one product ops to PM ratio is doing it wrong
Embedding a data person per director/VP is a hybrid-model stopgap for poorly instrumented data
Well-instrumented data lets PMs self-serve queries, so you need far fewer product ops people
Efficient companies like Ramp and Deel run product ops with very lean teams

“I would say like if you are at a one-to-one ratio, like you're doing it wrong.”
Melissa Perri · 39:30

#product ops#org design#hiring#team ratio

Takeaway41:30

Start With One Person and Your Most Painful Pillar

The guests' rollout advice is to start with a single person focused on whichever of the three pillars is highest leverage right now. Get a quick win, celebrate it, and only add a second person when you hit a hurdle the first can't handle. Different pillars need different backgrounds, so the second hire is often a different profile.

Get started with one person on the most important pillar for you right now
You can get enough leverage from that one hire to free up meaningful time
Add a second person only when you see a hurdle the first can't take on
The three pillars require different expertise, so hires differ by pillar

“We say to like like get started with one person.”
Melissa Perri · 41:30

#product ops#rollout#hiring#getting started

Takeaway1:14:00

Two Mottos: Serve Everyone and You Serve No One; What's the Worst That Can Happen

In the closing round the guests share the mottos they live by. Denise's is that trying to serve everybody means serving no one, applied both to honing a product persona and to parenting. Melissa's is to ask 'what's the worst that can happen,' a reframe she uses to manage anxiety before hard conversations and big leaps.

Denise: if you try to serve everybody, you serve no one, so hone in on your persona
Melissa: ask 'what's the worst that can happen' to defuse anxiety
The worst case is usually not as bad as you anticipate once you sit with it
Melissa credits this reframe for helping her take bigger leaps

“if you try to serve everybody, you serve no one.”
Denise Tilles · 1:14:00

“What's the worst that can happen?”
Melissa Perri · 1:14:30

#mindset#leadership#life advice

Frameworks in this episode

Hire-Experienced vs. Train-Up Decision Matrix

Hiring Profiles by Product Ops Pillar

Keep vs. Offload: The PM Decision-Rights Boundary

Product-Lens Metrics: Monitoring Product Health vs. Business Health

The Three Pillars of Product Operations

Which Product Ops Pillar to Start With

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 3

Product Ops Doesn't Take Your Decisions, It Takes Your Busywork