Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles16 November 2023

The ultimate guide to product operations

6Frameworks

16Insights

Episode overview

Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles explain product operations as a function that gives product managers and leaders better business data, customer and market insight, and product-development processes. They distinguish it from product, project, and program management: product ops supplies reusable systems and inputs, while product managers retain strategy, prioritization, trade-offs, research interpretation, stakeholder conversations, and outcome ownership. The guests also cover hiring and rollout, recommending that companies begin with one high-leverage problem and demonstrate quick wins. An Athenahealth case study shows how product ops improved executive portfolio visibility, analytics access, roadmap consistency, OKR tracking, and research infrastructure at scale.

Key ideas

Product operations is organized around three pillars: business and data insights, customer and market insights, and process and practices.
The function should increase the speed and quality of decisions without taking decision rights or outcome ownership away from product managers.
Shared dashboards, research repositories, participant databases, templates, tools, and operating cadences reduce repeated operational work across product teams.
High-growth companies often begin with business and data insights, while larger enterprises and transformations frequently begin with process and governance.
Product ops should be a lean shared-service function that automates and standardizes recurring work rather than creating one-to-one support for every product manager.
The first hire should target the company's most urgent constraint, conduct a listening tour, deliver visible quick wins, and clarify what a one-person function cannot yet cover.
Hiring profiles differ by pillar: analytical storytellers for business insights, experienced product practitioners with high EQ for process, and operationally minded researchers for customer insights.
At Athenahealth, product ops emerged after training alone could not solve executive visibility, portfolio roadmapping, analytics instrumentation, and repeatable research-system problems.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Leadership3 steps

Hire-Experienced vs. Train-Up Decision Matrix

Decide whether to hire an experienced product ops person or train one, based on time and coaching capacity

Read →

Leadership4 steps

Hiring Profiles by Product Ops Pillar

Match each product ops pillar to a distinct candidate background and skillset

Read →

Leadership3 steps

Keep vs. Offload: The PM Decision-Rights Boundary

A clear line for what a PM keeps versus hands to product ops — decision rights never move

Read →

Strategy3 steps

Product-Lens Metrics: Monitoring Product Health vs. Business Health

Segment company metrics through a product lens so leaders can actually monitor their strategy

Read →

Leadership3 steps

The Three Pillars of Product Operations

Structure a product ops function around data insights, customer insights, and process to free PMs for strategic work

Read →

Strategy4 steps

Which Product Ops Pillar to Start With

Choose your first product ops investment by company stage and where your biggest fire is

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 11

Denise TillesMentionsDenise is a product leader, coach, and consultant helping companies with their product vision, strategy, and execution
“Today my guests are Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles.”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
Melissa PerriMentionsThrough teaching, consulting, interim CPO work, and Product Institute, she has worked with thousands of product managers and hundreds of companies.
“Today my guests are Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles.”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
Denise TillesMentionsDenise is a product leader, coach, and consultant helping companies with their product vision, strategy, and execution
“Denise is a product leader, coach, and consultant helping companies with their product vision, strategy, and execution”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Melissa PerriMentionsThrough teaching, consulting, interim CPO work, and Product Institute, she has worked with thousands of product managers and hundreds of companies.
“Melissa is a legend in the product management community.”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“Try for free at atlassian.com/lenny. That's atlassian.com/lenny.”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
Blake SamicMentionsThe head of our product operations at Uber and the person who started it
“The head of our product operations at Uber and the person who started it, Blake Samic, is a case study in our book”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
ChristineMentionsmentioned
“We actually had Christine from Pendo on the podcast talking about product ops about a year ago”
▶ Watch at ~7:30approx.
Casey WintersMentionswho's had the most influence on you in your career well we mentioned him before so I gotta bring him back up Casey Winters
“We had a guest on, Casey Winters, and he has this perspective that when you have ops, operational people”
▶ Watch at ~37:30approx.
Shintaro MatsuiMentionsHe created the role at Amplitude
“One of our case studies is Shintaro Matsui at Amplitude, and he created the role at Amplitude.”
▶ Watch at ~45:30approx.
Ben SmithCoinedmentioned
“Another one that I recommend is called Traffic. It came out this year by Ben Smith.”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:30approx.
Teresa TorresCoinedpeople like Teresa Torres and others that have come up with a technique that is universal
“I love Teresa Torres's Continuous Discovery Habits. Fantastic book”
▶ Watch at ~1:10:30approx.

Resources · 33

Product Operations: How Successful Companies Build Better Products at ScaleCoinedbook · Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles
“Melissa and Denise are authors of an awesome new book called Product Operations: How Successful Companies Build Better Products at Scale.”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
HarvardMentionsother
“teaches product management at Harvard”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Products LabsMentionscompany
“She runs a product management training organization called Products Labs”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Escaping the Build TrapCoinedbook · Melissa Perri
“She's the author of the foundational PM book, Escaping the Build Trap.”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
AtlassianMentionscompany
“Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
Jira Product DiscoveryRecommendssoftware · Atlassian
“Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
OpenAIMentionscompany
“OpenAI, Uber, Stripe, Ramp, Deel. Those are just a few that I looked at.”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
UberMentionscompany · Uber
“The head of our product operations at Uber and the person who started it, Blake Samic, is a case study in our book”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
StripeMentionscompany · Patrick Collison and John Collison
“he also did it at Stripe and he does it at OpenAI.”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
AthenahealthUsescompany
“we had just started doing it at Athenahealth.”
▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
PendoMentionssoftware · Pendo
“I think around like 2019 is when Pendo started talking about product operations.”
▶ Watch at ~7:00approx.
MongoDBUsessoftware · MongoDB, Inc.
“I had to go learn MongoDB to get data out of a database.”
▶ Watch at ~10:00approx.
OpenSkyMentionscompany
“when I was at OpenSky, you know, in early days of my product management career”
▶ Watch at ~10:00approx.
SalesforceMentionscompany · Salesforce
“whether it's in salesforce, whether it's in support tickets, and somebody's Google Doc”
▶ Watch at ~18:00approx.
LookerUsessoftware · Google
“if you're putting this stuff in Looker or you know, a BI tool”
▶ Watch at ~34:00approx.
Sam's ClubMentionscompany
“I worked with Sam's Club, and they were planning to do it that way”
▶ Watch at ~44:30approx.
AmplitudeMentionssoftware · Amplitude
“One of our case studies is Shintaro Matsui at Amplitude, and he created the role at Amplitude.”
▶ Watch at ~45:30approx.
TableauMentionssoftware · Salesforce
“a BI tool like Looker or Tableau as well, and they could use it.”
▶ Watch at ~52:00approx.
AthenahealthMentionscompany
“When I was at Athenahealth, we were doing a Athenahealth has always been a software company”
▶ Watch at ~1:00:00approx.
JiraUsessoftware · Atlassian
“at the times we only had Jira, so like epics in Jira”
▶ Watch at ~1:03:30approx.
AmplitudeUsessoftware · Amplitude
“at the time they brought in Amplitude, and they were starting to put in Amplitude everywhere in the organization”
▶ Watch at ~1:04:30approx.
Escaping the Build TrapRecommendsbook · Melissa Perri
“Of course, Escaping the Build Trap. It's true.”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:30approx.
TrafficRecommendsbook · Ben Smith
“Another one that I recommend is called Traffic. It came out this year by Ben Smith.”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:30approx.
Continuous Discovery HabitsRecommendsbook · Teresa Torres
“I love Teresa Torres's Continuous Discovery Habits. Fantastic book”
▶ Watch at ~1:10:30approx.
The Fall of the House of UsherMentionstv show · Mike Flanagan
“I just watched watched the House of Usher on Netflix.”
▶ Watch at ~1:11:00approx.
The Haunting of Hill HouseRecommendstv show · Mike Flanagan
“I love the the Netflix genre of everything from The Haunting of Hill House. Those are great.”
▶ Watch at ~1:11:00approx.
Deutschland 83/86/89Recommendstv show
“Deutschland 82 86 89. It's on Hulu, highly recommend it.”
▶ Watch at ~1:11:00approx.
Love Is BlindMentionstv show
“My wife and I have been stuck on Love Is Blind, classic.”
▶ Watch at ~1:11:30approx.
DragonboatRecommendssoftware · Dragonboat
“after that, I discovered Dragonboat, and I'm now on their advisory board. But it helped me solve that problem so much”
▶ Watch at ~1:12:30approx.
DovetailRecommendssoftware · Dovetail
“Another one that I have not been involved with, but that I just really love because I think they're doing great things”
▶ Watch at ~1:13:00approx.
DistilledMentionssoftware
“I guess the one I would mention is Distilled.”
▶ Watch at ~1:13:30approx.
Product Operations: How Successful Companies Build Better Products at ScaleRecommendsbook · Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles
“For folks listening, make sure to grab their book Product Operations.”
▶ Watch at ~1:17:00approx.
Lenny's PodcastMentionspodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.”
▶ Watch at ~1:19:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take09:30

Product Ops Doesn't Take Your Decisions, It Takes Your Busywork

Melissa addresses the fear that product ops will strip work away from PMs. Her argument: product ops informs decisions but never makes them, so what it actually removes is the operational grind, like learning MongoDB just to pull your own data. She frames PMs as being so busy fighting to get data and line up interviews that they have no time to do their real job.

Product ops does not take decision-making rights from the PM, it exists to inform them
Melissa once had to learn MongoDB at OpenSky just to measure her features, then never used it again
The operational work (SQL queries, setting up interviews) doesn't help you make product decisions
The role is meant to be liberating and free PMs from busywork, not add overhead

“Product operations does not take away decision-making rights from the product manager. It's there to inform them.”
Melissa Perri · 09:30

“I'm fighting these fights to get the things that I need to do my job correctly that I don't have time to do my job…”
Melissa Perri · 10:30

#product ops#product management#career#burnout

Hot Take37:30

Is an Ops Role Just a Sign Software Should Do the Job?

Responding to Casey Winters' view that ops roles often signal inefficiency that software could someday fix, Melissa argues product ops won't fully disappear but should stay deliberately lean. A product-management mindset fits the role because it constantly asks how to use tools and systems to fill gaps, standardize, and let processes run themselves rather than throwing bodies at the problem.

The role won't become fully obsolete; you still need people overseeing programs
A well-run product ops team is lean, not thousands of people
A PM mindset fits because it asks how software, tools, and frameworks can standardize the work
Someone must keep the internal 'products for the product team' relevant as things change

“You still need people to oversee those programs. So, I don't think they would fully be obsolete.”
Melissa Perri · 38:00

“I think you're doing it wrong if you're doing that, right?”
Melissa Perri · 38:30

#product ops#hot take#efficiency#tooling

Hot Take42:30

Don't Staff Product Ops With Agile Coaches

Melissa warns against a common shortcut: putting Agile coaches into the process and governance pillar. Coaches who were never product managers tend to revert to Scrum optimization and running stand-ups, rather than doing the real job of improving product-management processes like roadmap reviews and executive-level communication.

Agile coaches who were never PMs will revert to Agile processes and Scrum optimization
The process pillar person needs a genuine product-management background
The real work is deciding who's in roadmap reviews, what inputs are needed, and what decisions come out
Executive communication means not digging into Jira in front of a CEO

“we don't usually need another Agile coach telling us how to run a stand-up.”
Melissa Perri · 43:30

#product ops#hiring#hot take#process

Explainer· 3

Explainer04:00

Product Ops Went From Nonexistent to Half of Scaling Companies

The guests describe how product operations went from a role almost nobody had five years ago to one about half of scaling tech companies now staff. Melissa traces its roots to big companies like Uber (via Blake Samic, who later took it to Stripe and OpenAI) and to her own work at Athenahealth. Both guests use their teaching cohorts as an informal gauge of adoption.

Companies cited as having product ops include OpenAI, Uber, Stripe, Ramp, and Deel
Blake Samic started product ops at Uber and repeated it at Stripe and OpenAI
In Melissa's CPO cohorts of ~20-25 people, at least half have someone doing product-ops work
Denise's masterclass students went from ~60% 'product-ops curious' in 2020 to ~60% already having it
Pendo began talking about product ops around 2019, which is when it picked up steam

“Out of like the 20 25 people that we'll have in a cohort, I'd say at least half of them have somebody doing something product…”
Melissa Perri · 05:30

#product ops#product management#org design#scaling

Explainer12:00

The Three Pillars That Structure Any Product Ops Function

Denise lays out the three-pillar model the book is organized around: business and data insights (quantitative), customer and market insights (qualitative), and process and practices. Which pillar matters most depends entirely on where a company's biggest opportunities and challenges sit.

Pillar 1: business and data insights, the quantitative side (engagement, revenue inputs)
Pillar 2: customer and market insights, the qualitative side (finding and synthesizing customer voices)
Pillar 3: process and practices, how the business builds product
The right emphasis depends on the company's needs and biggest gaps

“And finally, the third pillar is is process and practices.”
Denise Tilles · 12:00

#product ops#framework#operating model

Explainer30:30

Product Ops Monitors the Health of the Product, Not Just the Business

Melissa distinguishes company-level business metrics from product-level insight. Board metrics like ARR and net retention track the health of the business, but product ops applies a product lens: ARR by customer segment, by product line, adoption by feature set. Slicing metrics this way is what turns raw numbers into strategic insight for leaders and executives, not just PMs.

Business metrics (ARR, retention, net retention) monitor the health of the business
Product ops asks how to monitor the health of the product
The value comes from cutting metrics by segment, product line, and feature adoption
These insights let leaders actually verify whether a strategy (e.g. moving upmarket) is working

“where product ops comes into play and business data and insights is how do we monitor the health of our product?”
Melissa Perri · 31:00

“AR is interesting to me, but it's not as interesting to me as AR by customer segment, right?”
Melissa Perri · 31:00

#product ops#metrics#strategy#analytics

Story· 1

Story1:00:00

How Product Ops Was Born at Athenahealth

Melissa tells the origin story of discovering product ops at Athenahealth, an ~$8B market cap health-records company with 360+ product managers and 5,000 developers. After training everyone, problems emerged that training couldn't fix, like the CEO digging through Jira to understand what teams were building. They created a VP of product operations, built portfolio roadmap views and OKR dashboards, and the role survived multiple restructurings and a take-private.

Athenahealth had 360+ product managers and 5,000 software developers on a massive platform
Some problems couldn't be solved by training PMs, which sparked the need for product ops
They created a VP of product operations; a process-oriented PM moved into the role
They built portfolio roadmap views and OKR dashboards for executive visibility
Product ops survived the company going private and multiple restructurings

“We also realized we had way too many product managers. Like just way too many product managers.”
Melissa Perri · 1:01:00

“their current chief product officer is uh said that he will never go anywhere else that doesn't have product ops.”
Melissa Perri · 1:07:30

#product ops#case study#athenahealth#scaling

Q&A· 1

Q&A47:30

Hire an Experienced Product Ops Person, or Coach Someone Up?

Asked whether to hire someone who's already done product ops, Melissa ties the answer to time and coaching capacity. If you have time to coach and the person is self-directed, you can take someone with the right skill set and teach them. If you have no time and need value fast, hire someone who's done it before and can hit the ground running, then let them build the function.

If you can coach and the person is self-directed, take someone with the right skills and teach them
If you have no time and no coaching capacity, hire someone experienced who can hit the ground running
The same logic applies to hiring product leaders and product managers generally
Decide based on how fast you need value and how much coaching is available

“if you're not on a timeline to actually like teach these people these things and get them up to speed, then you need somebody to…”
Melissa Perri · 50:00

#product ops#hiring#leadership#coaching

Tool· 3

Tool55:00

The Interview Question: What Did You Hate Enough to Automate?

Melissa offers an interview question she thinks is ideal for any product ops role: ask candidates about a process they hated in their job and how they built a system or automation to fix it. It surfaces the core product-ops instinct to operationalize and improve rather than tolerate broken processes.

Ask candidates about a process they hated and automated or systematized away
The signal is a drive to operationalize and build systems to fix problems
This applies across all three product ops pillars
Good product ops people naturally say 'I can build a system to fix this'

“it's like tell me about some kind of process or some kind of thing that you had to do in your job that you really…”
Melissa Perri · 55:00

#hiring#interview questions#product ops

Tool1:09:30

The Books These Product Leaders Recommend Most

In the lightning round, the guests share their most-recommended books. Beyond Melissa's own Escaping the Build Trap, Denise recommends Traffic by Ben Smith on the rise of HuffPo and Gawker, and Melissa champions The Art of Action as a sleeper hit on strategy deployment, plus Teresa Torres's Continuous Discovery Habits.

Escaping the Build Trap by Melissa Perri
Traffic by Ben Smith, about the growth of HuffPo and Gawker
The Art of Action, a strategy book on how well strategy is deployed and where the gaps are
Continuous Discovery Habits by Teresa Torres

“Another one that I recommend is called Traffic. It came out this year by Ben Smith.”
Denise Tilles · 1:09:30

“The Art of Action, I think is a fantastic book on strategy, and I always I always recommend this to people.”
Melissa Perri · 1:10:00

#books#recommendations#strategy#product management

Tool1:12:30

The Product Tools They Love: Dragonboat, Dovetail, Distilled

The guests name products they admire. Melissa recommends Dragonboat, a portfolio tool that sits on top of Jira to roll up roadmaps (she's on their advisory board), and Dovetail, a research repository now layering AI on top of past research. Denise points to Distilled, a single workspace connecting strategy, discovery, and delivery visually.

Dragonboat sits on top of Jira and rolls everything up into a portfolio view
Dovetail is a research repository adding AI to generate insights from past research
Distilled is a single workspace connecting strategy, discovery, and delivery visually

“And after that, I discovered Dragonboat, and I'm now on their advisory board.”
Melissa Perri · 1:12:30

“I guess the one I would mention is Distilled.”
Denise Tilles · 1:13:30

#tools#software#product ops#recommendations

Takeaway· 5

Takeaway13:00

High-Growth Startups Start With Data, Enterprises Start With Process

Melissa gives a rule of thumb for which pillar to lead with based on company stage. High-growth companies typically begin with business data and insights so they can monitor performance and get strategic inputs. Larger enterprises in transformation usually start with process and governance because they lack a product operating model, while the customer and market insights pillar remains the underinvested 'squishy middle.'

High-growth companies start with business data and insights to monitor and get strategic inputs
Enterprises in transformation start with process and governance because they lack the infrastructure to run good product
Jira alone can't roll roadmaps up for a CPO; you need a portfolio tool for transparency
Customer and market insights is the 'squishy middle' and an area for growth in many companies

“So, we usually see that high-growth companies start with business data and insights and make sure that they have they can actually monitor what they're…”
Melissa Perri · 13:00

#product ops#strategy#org design#operating model

Takeaway24:30

The Things a PM Must Never Hand to Product Ops

Melissa draws a hard line around what stays with the product manager. Decision rights, prioritization, and hard trade-off conversations are non-negotiable PM ownership. Product ops can operationalize and point you toward customers, but it doesn't tell you what to build, doesn't police developers, and doesn't handle tough stakeholder negotiations.

Never outsource decision-making to a product ops person
Product ops can automate finding and contacting customers, but the PM does the actual research and decisions
Product ops are not project managers watching developers hit deadlines
PMs retain strategy, vision, prioritization, resource allocation, and hard trade-off conversations

“They don't want to offload decision rights. You should never be like outsourcing your decision making to a product ops person.”
Melissa Perri · 24:30

“They're not going to handle hard stakeholder conversations about trade-offs for you.”
Melissa Perri · 26:00

#product ops#product management#decision rights#ownership

Takeaway39:30

If You're at a 1-to-1 Product Ops Ratio, You're Doing It Wrong

Melissa rejects the idea of one product ops person per PM. A hybrid model with data people embedded at the director or VP level is a stopgap symptom of poorly instrumented data. Once data is well instrumented and PMs can self-serve queries, the ratio can go way up and the team stays small.

A one-to-one product ops to PM ratio is doing it wrong
Embedding a data person per director/VP is a hybrid-model stopgap for poorly instrumented data
Well-instrumented data lets PMs self-serve queries, so you need far fewer product ops people
Efficient companies like Ramp and Deel run product ops with very lean teams

“I would say like if you are at a one-to-one ratio, like you're doing it wrong.”
Melissa Perri · 39:30

#product ops#org design#hiring#team ratio

Takeaway41:30

Start With One Person and Your Most Painful Pillar

The guests' rollout advice is to start with a single person focused on whichever of the three pillars is highest leverage right now. Get a quick win, celebrate it, and only add a second person when you hit a hurdle the first can't handle. Different pillars need different backgrounds, so the second hire is often a different profile.

Get started with one person on the most important pillar for you right now
You can get enough leverage from that one hire to free up meaningful time
Add a second person only when you see a hurdle the first can't take on
The three pillars require different expertise, so hires differ by pillar

“We say to like like get started with one person.”
Melissa Perri · 41:30

#product ops#rollout#hiring#getting started

Takeaway1:14:00

Two Mottos: Serve Everyone and You Serve No One; What's the Worst That Can Happen

In the closing round the guests share the mottos they live by. Denise's is that trying to serve everybody means serving no one, applied both to honing a product persona and to parenting. Melissa's is to ask 'what's the worst that can happen,' a reframe she uses to manage anxiety before hard conversations and big leaps.

Denise: if you try to serve everybody, you serve no one, so hone in on your persona
Melissa: ask 'what's the worst that can happen' to defuse anxiety
The worst case is usually not as bad as you anticipate once you sit with it
Melissa credits this reframe for helping her take bigger leaps

“if you try to serve everybody, you serve no one.”
Denise Tilles · 1:14:00

“What's the worst that can happen?”
Melissa Perri · 1:14:30

#mindset#leadership#life advice

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Hire-Experienced vs. Train-Up Decision Matrix

Hiring Profiles by Product Ops Pillar

Keep vs. Offload: The PM Decision-Rights Boundary

Product-Lens Metrics: Monitoring Product Health vs. Business Health

The Three Pillars of Product Operations

Which Product Ops Pillar to Start With

People & resources mentioned

People · 11

Resources · 33

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 3

Product Ops Doesn't Take Your Decisions, It Takes Your Busywork

Is an Ops Role Just a Sign Software Should Do the Job?

Don't Staff Product Ops With Agile Coaches

✶Explainer· 3

Product Ops Went From Nonexistent to Half of Scaling Companies

The Three Pillars That Structure Any Product Ops Function

Product Ops Monitors the Health of the Product, Not Just the Business

❝Story· 1

How Product Ops Was Born at Athenahealth

?Q&A· 1

Hire an Experienced Product Ops Person, or Coach Someone Up?

✦Tool· 3

The Interview Question: What Did You Hate Enough to Automate?

The Books These Product Leaders Recommend Most

The Product Tools They Love: Dragonboat, Dovetail, Distilled

▲Takeaway· 5

High-Growth Startups Start With Data, Enterprises Start With Process

The Things a PM Must Never Hand to Product Ops

If You're at a 1-to-1 Product Ops Ratio, You're Doing It Wrong

Start With One Person and Your Most Painful Pillar

Two Mottos: Serve Everyone and You Serve No One; What's the Worst That Can Happen

Hot Take· 3

Explainer· 3

Story· 1

Q&A· 1

Tool· 3

Takeaway· 5