Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework)24 August 2023

The ultimate guide to JTBD

5Frameworks

14Insights

Episode overview

Bob Moesta explains Jobs to Be Done as a demand-side method for understanding why people change behavior, emphasizing context and desired outcomes over generic pain and gain. He describes interviewing recent buyers and churned customers to reconstruct causal stories involving pushes, pulls, anxieties, habits, and trade-offs. Examples from Intercom, Basecamp, Autobooks, Southern New Hampshire University, and homebuilding show how these insights can reshape products, positioning, and sales processes. He also distinguishes his practical method from Clayton Christensen's theory-oriented framing and Tony Ulwick's more functional, prescriptive approach.

Key ideas

People hire products to make progress in their lives; demand begins with a struggling moment rather than with a product.
A switch occurs when the push of the current situation and pull of a new outcome outweigh anxiety about the new and attachment to the present.
Customer value depends on both starting context and desired outcome, including functional, emotional, and social dimensions.
Interview people who recently acted, reconstruct their concrete stories, and probe contradictions instead of trusting stated future intentions.
Around 10 interviews per round can reveal repeating causal pathways, but the sample should deliberately represent the market's important variation.
Sales should meet customers in their buying phase: first thought, passive looking, active looking, deciding, first use, or ongoing use.
Products often serve several conflicting jobs, so teams must choose trade-offs that match the trade-offs customers will accept.
JTBD is weakest where customers have no meaningful choice or behavior is deeply habitual and no recent switch can be examined.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Innovation4 steps

Context and Outcome over Pain and Gain

Study the context that makes the irrational rational, not just the pain to be relieved.

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Innovation5 steps

The Four Forces of Progress

Model demand as a tug-of-war: two forces push people to switch, two hold them back.

Read →

Marketing4 steps

The JTBD Switch Interview

Interrogate the story of a real purchase to recover the true causes of a switch.

Read →

Sales4 steps

The Six Phases of the Buying Timeline

Meet buyers where they are on their timeline instead of forcing them onto yours.

Read →

Marketing4 steps

The Three Sources of Energy

Every purchase draws on functional, emotional, and social energy, not just utility.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 16

Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Bob MoestaMentionsBob is the co-creator of the job is to beone framework and worked alongside Klay Christensen for many years
“today my guest is Bob mea Bob is the co-creator of the jobs to beone framework alongside Kay Christensen”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Clayton ChristensenCoinedManagement thinker admired by Eric Ries whose endorsement of Ries's work was personally important to him.
“Bob is the co-creator of the jobs to beone framework alongside Kay Christensen”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Jason FriedMentionstoday my guest is Jason freed Jason is the co-founder and CEO of 37 signals
“folks like Jason freed founder of 37 signals and Dez from intercom came out”
▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
W. Edwards DemingMentionsManagement thinker cited for teaching that quality must be built into an organization.
“one of them was Dr Deming who's the father of lean and Quality Systems”
▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
Tony UlwickMentionsmentioned
“maybe a framework by someone named Tony olick and then there's your approach”
▶ Watch at ~48:00approx.
Ryan SingerCoinedRyan was one of the first few hires at 37 signals
“Shape Up by Ryan Singer it's phenomenal”
▶ Watch at ~59:00approx.
Todd RoseCoinedmentioned
“the other book I would say is end of average by Todd Rose”
▶ Watch at ~59:00approx.
Matt HodgesMentionsmentioned
“but then they brought Matt Hodges and Paul Adams and Sean Townson and and the the the executive team”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
Paul AdamsMentionsIntercom's chief product officer and author of a book about AI and customer service.
“but then they brought Matt Hodges and Paul Adams and Sean Townson and and the the the executive team”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
Des TraynorMentionsIntercom co-founder who alerted McCabe to the AI team's early product and is writing a book about AI disruption.
“it was Dez trainer and Owen mccave who were the two Founders”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
Eoghan McCabeMentionsIntercom founder and CEO who returned to lead its transformation into an AI-first company centered on Fin.
“it was Dez trainer and Owen mccave who were the two Founders”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
Sean TownsendMentionsmentioned
“but then they brought Matt Hodges and Paul Adams and Sean Townson and and the the the executive team”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
Willie Hobbs MooreMentionsDr Willie Moore was my first boss at Ford and she was a PhD in particle physics
“Dr Willie Moore was my first boss at Ford and she was a PhD in particle physics”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
Genichi TaguchiMentionsthen I learned Dr taguchi's method which is amazing around designed experiments
“then I learned Dr taguchi's method which is amazing around designed experiments”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
Andrew GlazerMentionsmentioned
“that's called laser Ventures with Andrew Glazer”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:30approx.

Resources · 28

Jobs to Be DoneCoinedother · Bob Moesta and Clayton Christensen
“Bob is the co-creator of the jobs to beone framework alongside Kay Christensen”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.link ↗
Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
The Re-Wired GroupMentionscompany · Bob Moesta
“currently the co-founder and CEO of the rewire group”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
LinkedInUseswebsite · LinkedIn
“I posted on LinkedIn what questions people had for you”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
SnickersMentionsproduct · Mars, Incorporated
“think of Snickers and Milky Way right they're both candy bars”
▶ Watch at ~5:30approx.
Milky WayMentionsproduct · Mars, Incorporated
“think of Snickers and Milky Way right they're both candy bars”
▶ Watch at ~5:30approx.
QuickBooksMentionssoftware · Intuit
“if you look at QuickBooks QuickBook is half the half the features and double the price”
▶ Watch at ~10:30approx.
Demand-Side Sales 101Coinedbook · Bob Moesta and Greg Engle
“I wrote a book called demands Side sales”
▶ Watch at ~14:00approx.
IntercomUsescompany · Intercom
“intercom realized that people hired it for four very very different reasons”
▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
HubSpotMentionscompany · HubSpot
“that job actually competed with HubSpot”
▶ Watch at ~21:00approx.
ZendeskMentionssoftware · Zendesk
“that one competed with zenes”
▶ Watch at ~21:00approx.
Kellogg School of ManagementMentionscompany · Northwestern University
“I'm a adjunct lecturer at the Kellog school at Northwestern”
▶ Watch at ~24:00approx.
TechstarsUsescompany
“then I help Tech Stars in white combinator”
▶ Watch at ~24:00approx.
Y CombinatorUsescompany · Paul Graham and co-founders
“then I help Tech Stars in white combinator”
▶ Watch at ~24:00approx.
eBayUsescompany · eBay
“we end up going and studying eBay and Etsy”
▶ Watch at ~28:00approx.
EtsyUsescompany · Etsy
“we end up going and studying eBay and Etsy”
▶ Watch at ~28:00approx.
CraigslistUseswebsite · Craigslist
“what caused somebody to say today's a day I'm going to set up an eBay store or sell something on Craigslist”
▶ Watch at ~28:30approx.
BasecampMentionssoftware · 37signals
“one of the reasons why people join base camp is because it's so dang simple”
▶ Watch at ~37:30approx.
Demand-Side Sales 101Recommendsbook · Bob Moesta and Greg Engle
“I would have them read demands Side sales”
▶ Watch at ~50:30approx.
Shape UpRecommendsbook · Ryan Singer
“Shape Up by Ryan Singer it's phenomenal”
▶ Watch at ~59:00approx.link ↗
The End of AverageRecommendsbook · Todd Rose
“the other book I would say is end of average by Todd Rose”
▶ Watch at ~59:00approx.
The Big Bang TheoryMentionstv show · Chuck Lorre and Bill Prady
“I love big bang I watch it every like people would say that I'm Sheldon”
▶ Watch at ~59:30approx.
Kyota massage chairRecommendsproduct · Kyota
“Kyoto is the one that I have I I got it from Costco it's it's fabulous”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.
CostcoUsescompany
“I I got it from Costco it's it's fabulous”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.
ToyotaMentionscompany
“that's where I learned a lot of tools and methods and things like that from Toyota”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:30approx.
Learning to BuildCoinedbook · Bob Moesta
“I wrote about them in a book called learning to build”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:30approx.
Laser VenturesCoinedcompany · Bob Moesta and Andrew Glazer
“that's called laser Ventures with Andrew Glazer”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:30approx.
The Circuit BreakerCoinedpodcast · Bob Moesta and Andrew Glazer
“we have a podcast called the circuit breaker”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:30approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster25:00

Over Half of Job Switchers Don't Get More Money

Bob applies JTBD to why people leave and join companies, arguing employees hire companies more than companies hire employees. People credit luck, but the switch is actually driven by pushes, pulls, anxieties and habits. Over 50% of people who took new jobs didn't earn more, and when money does matter it's usually a proxy for respect or responsibility.

Employees hire companies more than companies hire employees
People call a new job 'luck' but it was actually prepped and driven by forces
Over 50% of job switchers did not get more money
Money is often a stand-in for respect, responsibility or status

“employees actually hire companies more than companies hire employees”
Bob Moesta · 25:00

“over 50% of the people who got new jobs didn't get more money it's a lie”
Bob Moesta · 26:00

#jtbd#hiring#careers#myth-buster

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take10:30

A Kickass Half Beats a Half-Ass Whole

Bob pushes back on the belief that the best-featured product wins. Meeting customers where they are matters more than wowing them, and QuickBooks proves it by charging double for half the features. Customers convince themselves to make progress rather than being convinced by feature counts.

Building the 'best' product does not automatically make it sell better
QuickBooks has half the features and double the price yet wins
Success is about meeting customers where they are, not impressing them
Customers convince themselves to make progress

“a kickass half is better than a half-ass hole and that's what Jason talks about”
Bob Moesta · 10:30

“if you look at QuickBooks QuickBook is half the half the features and double the price”
Bob Moesta · 10:30

#jtbd#product-strategy#features#hot-take

Hot Take36:30

Bitching Ain't Switching

Bob warns against trusting what people say they'll do. Customers loudly demand features they'll never actually switch for, as when Basecamp users threatened to leave without Gantt charts but didn't. Following your best users toward more complexity can destroy the simplicity that drew everyone else in.

Never trust people telling you what they're going to do
Basecamp users threatened to leave over missing Gantt charts but stayed
Complaining is not the same as switching
Chasing power users' requests can destroy the simplicity that attracts most users

“bitching ain't switching just because people about something doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it”
Bob Moesta · 37:00

“one of the reasons why people join base camp is because it's so dang simple”
Bob Moesta · 37:30

#jtbd#product-strategy#features#hot-take

Explainer· 2

Explainer27:30

How to Interview Customers: Read Chris Voss and Push to the Edge of Language

Bob shares tactics for extracting real reasons behind decisions. He recommends Chris Voss's Never Split the Difference for mirroring and playing things back incorrectly so people correct you and keep talking. When someone runs out of words, he pushes them to the 'edge of language' and brackets choices he knows are wrong to force elaboration.

Read Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss for interview technique
Play things back incorrectly so people say 'no' and elaborate
Only interview people who have already tried to make the progress
At the edge of language, bracket wrong options to force more detail

“go read uh never split the difference by Chris Boss”
Bob Moesta · 27:30

“I usually get them to what I call the edge of language where they have no more language and what I do is I literally…”
Bob Moesta · 31:00

#jtbd#customer-interviews#tactics#research

Explainer37:30

The Layers of Language and the 18-Month Coat Rack

Bob describes how customers speak in layers: a 'pablum' layer of vague pleasantries, then a fantasy-nightmare layer of exaggeration, before the real story. Getting to the truth takes interrogation that feels like therapy, because people only remember the moment they paid. One buyer swore a $137 coat rack took a week, but the real decision spanned 18 months.

First is the pablum layer of vague answers like 'it was good'
Next is the fantasy-nightmare layer of exaggeration
The real reason requires interrogation that feels like therapy
A buyer thought a $137 coat rack took a week; it actually took 18 months

“criminal and intelligence interrogation that feels like therapy”
Bob Moesta · 38:30

“I did an interview with somebody who bought a coat rack right $137 coat rack it took them 18 months to buy it”
Bob Moesta · 39:00

#jtbd#customer-interviews#psychology#decision-making

Story· 5

Story05:30

Why Snickers and Milky Way Compete With Totally Different Products

Bob uses two nearly identical candy bars to show that competition is defined by the customer's situation, not the product's ingredients. A Snickers is hired as a fast meal replacement when someone is out of energy, so it competes with a protein drink or coffee. A Milky Way is eaten alone after an emotional moment, so it competes with a glass of wine or a brownie.

Snickers and Milky Way have nearly identical ingredients but serve different jobs
Snickers competes with protein drinks, Red Bull and coffee as a meal replacement
Milky Way competes with wine, a brownie and even a run as emotional comfort
The true competitive set comes from the demand side, not the supply side

“a Milky Way typically is eaten after an emotional experience could be positive could be negative it's usually eaten alone”
Bob Moesta · 06:30

“jobs helps you see the true competitive set from what we call the demand side of the world as opposed to the competitive set from…”
Bob Moesta · 07:00

#jtbd#competition#demand-side#product

Story07:30

The 50 Anomalies That Revealed a 200,000-Student Market

At Southern New Hampshire University in 2010, Bob found ~50-60 students paying full price to watch everything online instead of coming to class. Studying these anomalies revealed a distinct job for older adults returning to school. That struggling moment, not a new product, uncovered one of the largest universities in the world.

50-60 students were paying full price but never attending class in person
Older returning students had a fundamentally different job than 18-24 year olds
The struggling moment existed long before anyone built a product for it
The hidden market turned out to be over 200,000 students

“these people who were going to school but not actually coming to class and watching everything online and it was like 50 or 60 of…”
Bob Moesta · 08:00

“they have over 200,000 students they're one of the largest universities in the world”
Bob Moesta · 08:30

#jtbd#anomalies#education#struggling-moments

Story13:30

Removing Moving Friction Lifted Condo Sales 30%

When Bob sold downsizers a condo, many cancelled six weeks later because they couldn't figure out what to do with all their stuff. Rather than change the product, he raised the price and bundled in moving plus two years of storage to remove that frictional point. Sales rose over 30%.

Downsizers cancelled six weeks after buying because they couldn't offload their belongings
Packing and moving stuff was the real frictional coefficient, not the condo
He raised the price and included moving plus two years of storage
Reducing friction, not adding features, increased sales over 30%

“I actually in raised the price of the condo included moving in two years of storage”
Bob Moesta · 13:30

“with the condo because it's the frictional coefficient and I increase sales over 30%”
Bob Moesta · 14:00

#jtbd#friction#sales#real-estate

Story18:30

How a Man Who Can't Read Wrote Multiple Books

Bob explains that he cannot read the words he writes, the result of three childhood brain injuries. His mother taught him to read by circling the five longest words on a page. He calls dyslexia a gift that lets him see patterns, and he produces books by talking through ten two-hour sessions via his company Scribe Media.

Three closed-head brain injuries before age seven left him unable to read
His mother taught him to read by studying the five largest words on a page
He turns through a book three or four times and matches others' comprehension
He writes books via ten recorded two-hour talking sessions at Scribe Media

“it's a gift I'd never wish upon my children”
Bob Moesta · 22:30

“I can get a book out in three and a half four months”
Bob Moesta · 23:30

#dyslexia#personal-story#writing#learning

Story1:02:30

The Dining Room Table That Lifted Sales 22%

Downsizers told Bob they didn't want a dining room table in their new condo, but they wouldn't move until they knew where the table would go. He realized the table was the emotional bank account of their family life, so he did the opposite of what they asked and built a symbolic dining space too small to actually use. Sales rose 22%.

Downsizers said they didn't want a dining room table
They wouldn't move until they knew where the table would go
The table was the emotional bank account of their family life
Building a symbolic, unusable dining space increased sales 22%

“the dining table was the emotional bank account for their entire Liv”
Bob Moesta · 1:04:00

“I built a place to put the dining room table you could never eat at it”
Bob Moesta · 1:04:00

#jtbd#real-estate#emotional-jobs#story

Tool· 1

Tool59:00

Bob Moesta's Book Picks and His Life-Changing Massage Chair

In the lightning round Bob recommends Shape Up by Ryan Singer and End of Average by Todd Rose, a book he relistens to every year. His favorite recent product is a Kyoto massage chair from Costco that lets him get an on-demand massage in 20 minutes.

Shape Up by Ryan Singer is a top recommendation
End of Average by Todd Rose is one he relistens to every year
His favorite recent product is a Kyoto massage chair from Costco
On-demand 20-minute massages replaced biweekly appointments

“Shape Up by Ryan Singer it's phenomenal”
Bob Moesta · 59:00

“Kyoto is the one that I have I I got it from Costco it's it's fabulous”
Bob Moesta · 1:00:30

#books#recommendations#products#lightning-round

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway29:00

How Many Customer Interviews You Actually Need

Bob answers the common question of interview volume: the sets of pushes, pulls, anxieties and habits start to repeat around seven or eight interviews. He does 10, no more than 12, and prefers two rounds of 12 over a single batch of 24. Understanding your market's range beats chasing statistical significance.

Patterns start repeating around seven or eight interviews
He does 10, no more than 12
Two rounds of 12 beat one round of 24
You don't need statistical significance if you understand your market's range

“it starts to repeat around seven or eight and I usually do 10 no more than 12 and I would rather do two rounds of…”
Bob Moesta · 29:00

#jtbd#customer-interviews#research#sample-size

Takeaway34:00

Interview the People Who Churned

For an established product, Bob recommends interviewing customers who left. When someone churns they are still making progress, just somewhere else, which reveals the struggling moment and the context change that pushed them out. He also advises asking recent buyers about why they bought, not about the product itself.

For established products, interview people who churned
A customer who leaves is still making progress elsewhere
Churn reveals the struggling moment and the context that changed
Ask recent buyers about the story of why they bought, not the product

“when somebody leaves your product they're still making progress”
Bob Moesta · 35:00

#jtbd#churn#customer-interviews#retention

Takeaway58:00

Choose What to Suck At

In his closing takeaways, Bob says struggling moments are everywhere and are where innovation is needed most, and that you must understand the customer's standard of progress, not your own. His third lesson: deliberately choose what to suck at, and make sure your tradeoffs match the customer's tradeoffs, because most products fail on a tradeoff the customer didn't agree with.

Struggling moments are everywhere and are the seed of innovation
Focus on the customer's standard of progress, not your own
Choose what to suck at and make deliberate tradeoffs
Most failed products made a tradeoff the customer didn't agree with

“choose what to suck at figure out the the tradeoffs that you need to make”
Bob Moesta · 58:30

#jtbd#product-strategy#tradeoffs#takeaway

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Context and Outcome over Pain and Gain

The Four Forces of Progress

The JTBD Switch Interview

The Six Phases of the Buying Timeline

The Three Sources of Energy

People & resources mentioned

People · 16

Resources · 28

Insights & moments

⚡Myth Buster· 1

Over Half of Job Switchers Don't Get More Money

◆Hot Take· 2

A Kickass Half Beats a Half-Ass Whole

Bitching Ain't Switching

✶Explainer· 2

How to Interview Customers: Read Chris Voss and Push to the Edge of Language

The Layers of Language and the 18-Month Coat Rack

❝Story· 5

Why Snickers and Milky Way Compete With Totally Different Products

The 50 Anomalies That Revealed a 200,000-Student Market

Removing Moving Friction Lifted Condo Sales 30%

How a Man Who Can't Read Wrote Multiple Books

The Dining Room Table That Lifted Sales 22%

✦Tool· 1

Bob Moesta's Book Picks and His Life-Changing Massage Chair

▲Takeaway· 3

How Many Customer Interviews You Actually Need

Interview the People Who Churned

Choose What to Suck At

Myth Buster· 1

Hot Take· 2

Explainer· 2

Story· 5

Tool· 1

Takeaway· 3