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Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework)24 August 2023

The ultimate guide to JTBD

5Frameworks
14Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Innovation4 steps

Context and Outcome over Pain and Gain

Study the context that makes the irrational rational, not just the pain to be relieved.

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Innovation5 steps

The Four Forces of Progress

Model demand as a tug-of-war: two forces push people to switch, two hold them back.

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Marketing4 steps

The JTBD Switch Interview

Interrogate the story of a real purchase to recover the true causes of a switch.

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Sales4 steps

The Six Phases of the Buying Timeline

Meet buyers where they are on their timeline instead of forcing them onto yours.

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Marketing4 steps

The Three Sources of Energy

Every purchase draws on functional, emotional, and social energy, not just utility.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster25:00

Over Half of Job Switchers Don't Get More Money

Bob applies JTBD to why people leave and join companies, arguing employees hire companies more than companies hire employees. People credit luck, but the switch is actually driven by pushes, pulls, anxieties and habits. Over 50% of people who took new jobs didn't earn more, and when money does matter it's usually a proxy for respect or responsibility.

  • Employees hire companies more than companies hire employees
  • People call a new job 'luck' but it was actually prepped and driven by forces
  • Over 50% of job switchers did not get more money
  • Money is often a stand-in for respect, responsibility or status

“employees actually hire companies more than companies hire employees”

Bob Moesta · 25:00

“over 50% of the people who got new jobs didn't get more money it's a lie”

Bob Moesta · 26:00
#jtbd#hiring#careers#myth-buster

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take10:30

A Kickass Half Beats a Half-Ass Whole

Bob pushes back on the belief that the best-featured product wins. Meeting customers where they are matters more than wowing them, and QuickBooks proves it by charging double for half the features. Customers convince themselves to make progress rather than being convinced by feature counts.

  • Building the 'best' product does not automatically make it sell better
  • QuickBooks has half the features and double the price yet wins
  • Success is about meeting customers where they are, not impressing them
  • Customers convince themselves to make progress

“a kickass half is better than a half-ass hole and that's what Jason talks about”

Bob Moesta · 10:30

“if you look at QuickBooks QuickBook is half the half the features and double the price”

Bob Moesta · 10:30
#jtbd#product-strategy#features#hot-take
Hot Take36:30

Bitching Ain't Switching

Bob warns against trusting what people say they'll do. Customers loudly demand features they'll never actually switch for, as when Basecamp users threatened to leave without Gantt charts but didn't. Following your best users toward more complexity can destroy the simplicity that drew everyone else in.

  • Never trust people telling you what they're going to do
  • Basecamp users threatened to leave over missing Gantt charts but stayed
  • Complaining is not the same as switching
  • Chasing power users' requests can destroy the simplicity that attracts most users

“bitching ain't switching just because people about something doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it”

Bob Moesta · 37:00

“one of the reasons why people join base camp is because it's so dang simple”

Bob Moesta · 37:30
#jtbd#product-strategy#features#hot-take

Explainer· 2

Explainer27:30

How to Interview Customers: Read Chris Voss and Push to the Edge of Language

Bob shares tactics for extracting real reasons behind decisions. He recommends Chris Voss's Never Split the Difference for mirroring and playing things back incorrectly so people correct you and keep talking. When someone runs out of words, he pushes them to the 'edge of language' and brackets choices he knows are wrong to force elaboration.

  • Read Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss for interview technique
  • Play things back incorrectly so people say 'no' and elaborate
  • Only interview people who have already tried to make the progress
  • At the edge of language, bracket wrong options to force more detail

“go read uh never split the difference by Chris Boss”

Bob Moesta · 27:30

“I usually get them to what I call the edge of language where they have no more language and what I do is I literally…”

Bob Moesta · 31:00
#jtbd#customer-interviews#tactics#research
Explainer37:30

The Layers of Language and the 18-Month Coat Rack

Bob describes how customers speak in layers: a 'pablum' layer of vague pleasantries, then a fantasy-nightmare layer of exaggeration, before the real story. Getting to the truth takes interrogation that feels like therapy, because people only remember the moment they paid. One buyer swore a $137 coat rack took a week, but the real decision spanned 18 months.

  • First is the pablum layer of vague answers like 'it was good'
  • Next is the fantasy-nightmare layer of exaggeration
  • The real reason requires interrogation that feels like therapy
  • A buyer thought a $137 coat rack took a week; it actually took 18 months

“criminal and intelligence interrogation that feels like therapy”

Bob Moesta · 38:30

“I did an interview with somebody who bought a coat rack right $137 coat rack it took them 18 months to buy it”

Bob Moesta · 39:00
#jtbd#customer-interviews#psychology#decision-making

Story· 5

Story05:30

Why Snickers and Milky Way Compete With Totally Different Products

Bob uses two nearly identical candy bars to show that competition is defined by the customer's situation, not the product's ingredients. A Snickers is hired as a fast meal replacement when someone is out of energy, so it competes with a protein drink or coffee. A Milky Way is eaten alone after an emotional moment, so it competes with a glass of wine or a brownie.

  • Snickers and Milky Way have nearly identical ingredients but serve different jobs
  • Snickers competes with protein drinks, Red Bull and coffee as a meal replacement
  • Milky Way competes with wine, a brownie and even a run as emotional comfort
  • The true competitive set comes from the demand side, not the supply side

“a Milky Way typically is eaten after an emotional experience could be positive could be negative it's usually eaten alone”

Bob Moesta · 06:30

“jobs helps you see the true competitive set from what we call the demand side of the world as opposed to the competitive set from…”

Bob Moesta · 07:00
#jtbd#competition#demand-side#product
Story07:30

The 50 Anomalies That Revealed a 200,000-Student Market

At Southern New Hampshire University in 2010, Bob found ~50-60 students paying full price to watch everything online instead of coming to class. Studying these anomalies revealed a distinct job for older adults returning to school. That struggling moment, not a new product, uncovered one of the largest universities in the world.

  • 50-60 students were paying full price but never attending class in person
  • Older returning students had a fundamentally different job than 18-24 year olds
  • The struggling moment existed long before anyone built a product for it
  • The hidden market turned out to be over 200,000 students

“these people who were going to school but not actually coming to class and watching everything online and it was like 50 or 60 of…”

Bob Moesta · 08:00

“they have over 200,000 students they're one of the largest universities in the world”

Bob Moesta · 08:30
#jtbd#anomalies#education#struggling-moments
Story13:30

Removing Moving Friction Lifted Condo Sales 30%

When Bob sold downsizers a condo, many cancelled six weeks later because they couldn't figure out what to do with all their stuff. Rather than change the product, he raised the price and bundled in moving plus two years of storage to remove that frictional point. Sales rose over 30%.

  • Downsizers cancelled six weeks after buying because they couldn't offload their belongings
  • Packing and moving stuff was the real frictional coefficient, not the condo
  • He raised the price and included moving plus two years of storage
  • Reducing friction, not adding features, increased sales over 30%

“I actually in raised the price of the condo included moving in two years of storage”

Bob Moesta · 13:30

“with the condo because it's the frictional coefficient and I increase sales over 30%”

Bob Moesta · 14:00
#jtbd#friction#sales#real-estate
Story18:30

How a Man Who Can't Read Wrote Multiple Books

Bob explains that he cannot read the words he writes, the result of three childhood brain injuries. His mother taught him to read by circling the five longest words on a page. He calls dyslexia a gift that lets him see patterns, and he produces books by talking through ten two-hour sessions via his company Scribe Media.

  • Three closed-head brain injuries before age seven left him unable to read
  • His mother taught him to read by studying the five largest words on a page
  • He turns through a book three or four times and matches others' comprehension
  • He writes books via ten recorded two-hour talking sessions at Scribe Media

“it's a gift I'd never wish upon my children”

Bob Moesta · 22:30

“I can get a book out in three and a half four months”

Bob Moesta · 23:30
#dyslexia#personal-story#writing#learning
Story1:02:30

The Dining Room Table That Lifted Sales 22%

Downsizers told Bob they didn't want a dining room table in their new condo, but they wouldn't move until they knew where the table would go. He realized the table was the emotional bank account of their family life, so he did the opposite of what they asked and built a symbolic dining space too small to actually use. Sales rose 22%.

  • Downsizers said they didn't want a dining room table
  • They wouldn't move until they knew where the table would go
  • The table was the emotional bank account of their family life
  • Building a symbolic, unusable dining space increased sales 22%

“the dining table was the emotional bank account for their entire Liv”

Bob Moesta · 1:04:00

“I built a place to put the dining room table you could never eat at it”

Bob Moesta · 1:04:00
#jtbd#real-estate#emotional-jobs#story

Tool· 1

Tool59:00

Bob Moesta's Book Picks and His Life-Changing Massage Chair

In the lightning round Bob recommends Shape Up by Ryan Singer and End of Average by Todd Rose, a book he relistens to every year. His favorite recent product is a Kyoto massage chair from Costco that lets him get an on-demand massage in 20 minutes.

  • Shape Up by Ryan Singer is a top recommendation
  • End of Average by Todd Rose is one he relistens to every year
  • His favorite recent product is a Kyoto massage chair from Costco
  • On-demand 20-minute massages replaced biweekly appointments

“Shape Up by Ryan Singer it's phenomenal”

Bob Moesta · 59:00

“Kyoto is the one that I have I I got it from Costco it's it's fabulous”

Bob Moesta · 1:00:30
#books#recommendations#products#lightning-round

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway29:00

How Many Customer Interviews You Actually Need

Bob answers the common question of interview volume: the sets of pushes, pulls, anxieties and habits start to repeat around seven or eight interviews. He does 10, no more than 12, and prefers two rounds of 12 over a single batch of 24. Understanding your market's range beats chasing statistical significance.

  • Patterns start repeating around seven or eight interviews
  • He does 10, no more than 12
  • Two rounds of 12 beat one round of 24
  • You don't need statistical significance if you understand your market's range

“it starts to repeat around seven or eight and I usually do 10 no more than 12 and I would rather do two rounds of…”

Bob Moesta · 29:00
#jtbd#customer-interviews#research#sample-size
Takeaway34:00

Interview the People Who Churned

For an established product, Bob recommends interviewing customers who left. When someone churns they are still making progress, just somewhere else, which reveals the struggling moment and the context change that pushed them out. He also advises asking recent buyers about why they bought, not about the product itself.

  • For established products, interview people who churned
  • A customer who leaves is still making progress elsewhere
  • Churn reveals the struggling moment and the context that changed
  • Ask recent buyers about the story of why they bought, not the product

“when somebody leaves your product they're still making progress”

Bob Moesta · 35:00
#jtbd#churn#customer-interviews#retention
Takeaway58:00

Choose What to Suck At

In his closing takeaways, Bob says struggling moments are everywhere and are where innovation is needed most, and that you must understand the customer's standard of progress, not your own. His third lesson: deliberately choose what to suck at, and make sure your tradeoffs match the customer's tradeoffs, because most products fail on a tradeoff the customer didn't agree with.

  • Struggling moments are everywhere and are the seed of innovation
  • Focus on the customer's standard of progress, not your own
  • Choose what to suck at and make deliberate tradeoffs
  • Most failed products made a tradeoff the customer didn't agree with

“choose what to suck at figure out the the tradeoffs that you need to make”

Bob Moesta · 58:30
#jtbd#product-strategy#tradeoffs#takeaway