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Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at 15 September 2024

The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand

7Frameworks
15Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster1:13:30

Don't Trust AI for Quotes, It Makes Them Up

Camille recounts asking ChatGPT for quotes while writing her book and getting interesting-sounding lines that were never real, even after repeatedly challenging it. She ties it to the fake critic quotes in Francis Ford Coppola's Megalopolis trailer, which was pulled. The lesson: AI can summarize well but invents quotes, so always verify.

  • ChatGPT gave her compelling quotes that were not real, not a single one
  • Even when challenged, it just produced another fake quote
  • AI's fabricated 'quotes' are good summarizations, not actual quotes
  • Ties to the Coppola Megalopolis trailer with fake critic quotes that was taken down
  • General reminder: don't assume what AI tells you is true

and they were not real they were never real not a single quote

Camille Fournier · 1:14:30

so don't ask it for quotes because or if you do make sure it's a real quote

Camille Fournier · 1:14:30
#ai#chatgpt#hallucination#writing

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take14:30

Why Major Rewrites Are Usually a Trap

Engineers often convince themselves the only fix for a painful old system is to build a new one from scratch. Camille argues this rarely works because teams massively underestimate migration time and how much undocumented business logic is buried in legacy systems. She recommends staged evolution, uplifting well-contained pieces, over a full go-away-and-rewrite.

  • Engineers underestimate the time to migrate from old system to new
  • You must keep supporting the old system while building the new one
  • Legacy systems hold undocumented, weird business logic that's hard to replicate
  • Better approach: staged evolution, uplift contained pieces, not a full rewrite
  • Ask whether the system actually needs to change or is just annoying to engineers

Engineers notoriously notoriously notoriously massively underestimate the migration time for old system to new system

Camille Fournier · 16:30
#rewrites#legacy-systems#migration#engineering
Hot Take28:30

GraphQL: Popular But Poorly Regarded by Senior Engineers

Camille flags GraphQL as both popular and thought poorly of by most senior people she knows. Her impression is that it promises front-end engineers they won't have to collaborate with backend engineers and can just build whatever they want, which rarely works out in practice. Unless you're Facebook, make sure you actually know what problem you're solving.

  • GraphQL is popular yet regarded poorly by many senior engineers
  • It seems to promise front-end engineers freedom from collaborating with backend
  • That promise rarely works out well for those who adopt it in practice
  • If you're not Facebook, be sure of the problem you're solving

it is one of the things that is both popular and thought relatively poorly of by most of the senior people that I know

Camille Fournier · 28:30

graphql is kind of trying to promise front-end Engineers that they don't really have to like collaborate with backend engineers

Camille Fournier · 29:30
#graphql#tech-stack#engineering#hot-take
Hot Take40:30

You Should Probably Have Fewer One-on-Ones

Camille holds direct-report and manager one-on-ones sacred, but pushes back on doing one-on-ones with every peer and stakeholder. They don't scale, since relationships grow linearly with the number of people. Worse, for stakeholder management they hide problems: an unhappy stakeholder never hears that everyone else is happy, so relying on private meetings backfires.

  • Keep one-on-ones with direct reports and your own manager sacred
  • One-on-ones with every peer and stakeholder don't scale
  • People who don't want a one-on-one may resent being asked
  • Private one-on-ones hide problems from unhappy stakeholders
  • Respect your own time; don't load up on meetings just because you're a manager

you should have one-on ones with your direct reports and your manager and you should you should hold those sacred

Camille Fournier · 40:30

your unhappy stakeholders kind of aren't hearing that

Camille Fournier · 43:00
#management#one-on-ones#meetings#stakeholders

Explainer· 6

Explainer03:00

The Things PMs Do That Annoy Engineers Most

Camille lists the easy-to-fix ways product managers irritate engineers. The first is hoarding credit, since PMs are usually the front-facing person and can absorb all the glory for work engineers did. The second is acting like technical details don't matter, which reads as a lack of empathy for engineering work.

  • Hoarding credit is an easy fix: share credit and let engineers speak to their contributions
  • Acting like details don't matter shows a lack of empathy for engineers' work
  • Engineering done successfully is all about the details
  • You don't have to understand every detail, but don't dismiss them as unimportant

engineering done successfully really is all about the details

Camille Fournier · 04:00
#product-management#engineering-culture#collaboration
Explainer08:00

Hoarding All the Ideas Makes Engineers Over-Engineer

When PMs try to own every product idea and detail, engineers lose their creative outlet in the product itself. Camille says they then redirect that creative energy into the technology, obsessing over frameworks and over-engineering things that don't matter for delivery. Quashing an engineer's voice in the product pushes them to find control in the tech instead.

  • PMs hoarding ideas removes engineers' creative outlet in the product
  • Engineers then use engineering skills as their creative outlet
  • This leads to over-engineering and obsessing over the 'right' framework
  • She can predict over-engineering wherever engineers' product voice is ignored

I see Engineers start to over engineer things because Engineers are like well I need to take control of something

Camille Fournier · 08:00
#product-management#over-engineering#engineering-culture
Explainer23:00

How to Stay Technical as an Engineering Leader

Camille says staying credible as a hands-off leader isn't about writing code but about paying attention and asking good questions. Surround yourself with smart technical people, listen to them debug and discuss real problems, and guide with questions rather than dictating library choices. Engineers distrust long-hands-off leaders who try to tell them which tools to use.

  • Being technical is about knowing what's going on and asking good questions
  • Don't dictate library choices when you've been hands-off; engineers won't trust it
  • Guide with 'have you considered this' rather than commands
  • Surround yourself with smart technical people and listen to them constantly
  • She stays credible by listening to smart engineers, not by writing code

not that I'm writing code because I'm not but I am listening to a lot of very smart people talk about technology

Camille Fournier · 24:00
#engineering-leadership#staying-technical#management
Explainer36:00

The Biggest Surprise of Management: You Don't Own Your Time

New managers are most often surprised that they lose control of their own time, which the team and company increasingly own as you become more senior. People expect authority and freedom but find management is really a service job, not command-and-control. In tech especially, snapping your fingers doesn't work; people revolt, so you nudge, direct, and set guardrails instead.

  • You don't own your time as a manager; the team and company do, more so with seniority
  • Expectations of freedom plus authority don't match reality
  • Management is a service job, not command-and-control
  • In tech, ordering people around makes them revolt
  • The job is nudging, directing, and setting guardrails, not making every decision

you really don't own your time as a manager

Camille Fournier · 36:30

management really is a service job you are serving the team you are serving the company

Camille Fournier · 37:00
#management#leadership#career
Explainer58:00

Platforms Are Products, So Staff Them Like Products

Camille insists platform engineering must involve software engineers, not just ops/SRE folks, or you get scripts and enablement rather than a coherent platform. Platforms are ultimately products, so they also need product managers to drive impact- and outcome-based work. Leaving platform direction to engineers and engineering management alone won't produce great results.

  • Platform teams need real software engineers, not just ops/SRE
  • Without software engineers you get scripts, not a coherent platform
  • Platforms are products and need product managers
  • Focus on impact/outcome measures: cycle time, cost reductions, unblocking launches
  • You won't get great results leaving it to engineers and eng management alone

frankly you need to be platforms are products ultimately

Camille Fournier · 59:00
#platform-engineering#team-structure#product-management
Explainer1:04:30

When It's Time to Start a Platform Team

Camille says platform teams generally make sense around 50-plus engineers, not at 10. The signals are duplicated effort (the same kind of people solving the same problems on every team) or a core scaling issue that needs a dedicated team. Don't jump in early; it's for matured companies where centralizing functions pays off in cost and efficiency.

  • Roughly 50-plus engineers is when a platform team starts to make sense
  • Not something to start at 10 engineers
  • Signal 1: same people on every team solving the same problems (inefficiency)
  • Signal 2: a core scaling or technical challenge needing a dedicated team
  • Best for matured companies where centralizing is worth the investment

it tends to be like you have 50 plus Engineers I don't think this is the kind of thing that you start when you are…

Camille Fournier · 1:05:00
#platform-engineering#scaling#team-structure#org-design

Takeaway· 5

Takeaway07:00

Stop Playing Telephone Between Engineers and Stakeholders

A third PM annoyance is becoming a middle person who relays technical questions they don't understand back and forth between askers and engineers. Camille says it wastes everyone's time and frustrates senior engineers. If it happens often, it's a sign to connect people directly rather than filtering everything through yourself.

  • Relaying questions you don't understand is a waste of time for everyone
  • It especially frustrates senior engineers on projects
  • 'Let me get back to you' repeated often means you're losing something in translation
  • Frequent telephone-playing is a signal to connect people directly

I think that is very annoying and frankly it's kind of a waste of time for everyone

Camille Fournier · 07:30
#product-management#communication#management
Takeaway10:00

The Best PMs Aren't Threatened by Other People's Ideas

Camille says the strongest product managers welcome ideas from a team full of smart engineers rather than feeling threatened by them. They also understand that engineers who think they could do the PM job usually don't grasp all the elements it takes. The best PMs build relationships so engineers feel heard while appreciating what the product role actually contributes.

  • Great PMs aren't threatened by smart engineers having ideas
  • Many engineers think they can be PMs but underestimate the job
  • Build relationships so engineers can share ideas and appreciate the PM role
  • Engineers accept that many ideas won't go anywhere if someone actually listens

the product managers that have have done the best they're not threatened by other people having ideas

Camille Fournier · 10:00
#product-management#leadership#collaboration
Takeaway21:00

Get to Technical Mastery Before Moving Into Management

Camille advises staying hands-on technical until skill is 'in your bones' before making the leap to management, so it becomes a rusty-but-recoverable capability like a second language or instrument. In her estimate, real mastery took roughly ten years of intense study and full-time coding. Don't take the first management offer if you haven't put in that time, and don't rush if you still love writing code.

  • Stay hands-on until technical skill is 'in your bones'
  • Mastery becomes recoverable like a second language or instrument
  • Her own path suggests roughly the 10-year range of writing code
  • Especially important for women/underrepresented people whose skills get underestimated
  • Don't become a manager just because it's offered, or if you still enjoy coding

one piece of advice I give everybody is don't stop being a Hands-On technical until you feel like it's in your bones

Camille Fournier · 21:00

somewhere in the 10year range of like really having spent a lot of your time over those years in writing code

Camille Fournier · 32:30
#career#engineering-management#mastery
Takeaway27:00

Don't Chase Every New Framework

Riffing on indie hacker levels.io running everything on PHP and jQuery, Camille agrees that much of tech is over-engineered and that keeping up doesn't mean obsessively chasing every trend. The catch is scale: what makes one person productive won't necessarily make ten, a hundred, or a thousand people productive. Be aware of new tech without letting it dictate your stack.

  • So much of tech is over-engineering things
  • What works for a one-person show doesn't always work in a scaled organization
  • Keep up with what's changing, but don't obsessively chase every trend
  • Balance tech that makes one person fast vs. tech that makes many people fast

so much of tech is over engineering things

Camille Fournier · 27:00

what works as a oneperson show doesn't always work in a scaled Organization

Camille Fournier · 27:30
#engineering#over-engineering#tech-stack#scaling
Takeaway45:30

Work Fewer Hours, But With Real Focus

Camille argues that working long hours lets you sidestep the hard work of figuring out what actually matters. She believes in working hard in a focused way over fewer hours, backed by regular audits of your time to cut what doesn't matter. Forcing yourself to log off, and building heavy focus habits early in your career, is how she got to mastery.

  • Long hours let you avoid figuring out what's actually important
  • Regularly audit your time and cut things that don't matter
  • Focused work over fewer hours is more productive
  • Force yourself to log off to create real boundaries
  • Heavy focus early in her career was a key reason she reached mastery

older work kind of lets you just sidestep doing the hard work of figuring out what's important in the first place

Camille Fournier · 46:00

working hard in a focused way for Le but over fewer hours I think is a more productive way to approach work

Camille Fournier · 48:30
#productivity#work-life-balance#focus