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Shishir Mehrotra of Coda, YouTube, Microsoft14 August 2022

The rituals of great teams

6Frameworks
13Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take30:00

Culture Is the Second Product You Build (for Employees)

Riffing on an idea from HubSpot founder Dharmesh Shah, Shishir reframes company culture as a product. Every company builds two products: one for customers and one for employees, and that second product is culture. He adds that rituals are the mirror of culture, which is why people describe a company's culture by naming its rituals.

  • Companies build two products: one for customers, one for employees
  • The product built for employees is culture
  • Rituals are a mirror of culture
  • When asked about a company's culture, people answer by describing its rituals

we actually build two products we build one for our customers and we build another one for our employees

Shishir Mehrotra · 30:00

that's the product we built for employees

Shishir Mehrotra · 30:00
#culture#rituals#leadership#teams
Hot Take1:20:30

Reference Checks Beat Interviews as a Hiring Signal

Shishir's strongest hiring opinion: if you stack-rank hiring signals, the reference check sits at the top, above interviews. Colleagues have worked with someone for years, so their read beats anything you can learn from 30 minutes of artificial interview scenarios. He does reference checks as early as practical, and they lead him to not hire 'all the time.' The second-best signal is a real work exercise.

  • Reference check is the #1 hiring signal, ahead of interviews
  • 30 minutes of artificial interview scenarios can't match years of real coworking
  • He runs reference checks as early in the process as possible
  • References lead to a no-hire 'all the time'; a real work exercise is the second-best signal

i generally value the reference check over interview signals you know if i had the stack rank in interviews what is the best signal the…

Shishir Mehrotra · 1:20:30

what you're gonna get out of 30 minutes of artificial scenarios it's just like never going to compare with what a good reference check will…

Shishir Mehrotra · 1:21:00
#hiring#reference-checks#interviewing#leadership

Explainer· 3

Explainer11:30

Why Coda Only Charges the Person Who Makes a Doc

Shishir explains Coda's 'maker billing' pricing, which breaks from every other document product. Instead of charging editors and makers, Coda charges only when someone creates a document, so a team needs just one paid license. The reason is strategic: he wanted zero friction on the share action, because sharing is the product's growth moment.

  • Most document products charge for both editors and makers; Coda charges only for makers
  • A team using paid features needs only one paid license
  • The goal was 'no dollar signs' at the moment of sharing, the key growth loop
  • Charging at the share moment (as most productivity tools do) would kill sharing

we're only going to charge for people when they make a document

Shishir Mehrotra · 11:00

i wanted no friction on the share end

Shishir Mehrotra · 11:30
#pricing#growth#saas#coda
Explainer1:17:00

How to Run a Reference Check That Gets the Truth

Reference-check answers are distorted by perverse incentives: people don't like criticizing others and fear blowback. Shishir's techniques counter this by drawing contrast rather than asking directly. The ideal is to not even name who you're asking about, instead asking who on the team is best at a given thing. Alternatively, offer four personas as an 'out' so the reference can speak freely, and never reveal which trait you value.

  • People have perverse incentives in references and avoid criticizing others
  • Ideal: don't name the person, ask 'who on your team is best at X?'
  • Offer contrasting personas (finds problems / solves them / gets teams moving / executes a playbook)
  • Don't tell the reference what trait you value, or you'll bias the answer

you don't even tell them who you're asking about right you say when you think of your teams who is best at that

Shishir Mehrotra · 1:17:00

if i want to know where they stand on this axis don't tell people what you value

Shishir Mehrotra · 1:19:00
#hiring#reference-checks#interviewing#leadership
Explainer1:21:30

Home Court, Away Court, Neutral Court Interview Questions

Shishir frames interview questions in three types. Home-court questions ('what would you do about X at our company?') just test whether a candidate reached the same answer you did, which is a weak test. Away-court questions about the candidate's own past can hide whether the problem was actually hard. He favors neutral-court questions like the teleportation puzzle, plus a candidate presentation designed to let them 'upper bound' themselves rather than be lower-bounded by standard questions.

  • Home court: 'what would you do at our company?' only tests if they matched your answer
  • Away court: questions about their past can hide how hard the problem really was
  • Neutral court (e.g. the teleportation question) is fairest and least dependent on inside knowledge
  • The candidate presentation is a deliberate 'away court' brag session to upper-bound them

a common mistake people make is they do all questions in home court

Shishir Mehrotra · 1:22:00

we're trying to lower bound you like how bad could this be i want you to upper bound us

Shishir Mehrotra · 1:23:30
#hiring#interviewing#product#leadership

Story· 6

Story31:30

Ariana Huffington's 'Reset' Meeting Ritual

Shishir shares one of his favorite rituals, from Ariana Huffington. Each person records a personal one-minute breathing-exercise video with images, quotes, and music that matter to them. Meetings begin by spinning a wheel to pick someone at random and playing their reset, giving the team both a shared calming moment and a way to learn about each other.

  • A 'reset' is a personal one-minute breathing-exercise video
  • Videos include personal photos, favorite quotes, and music
  • Meetings start by randomly picking someone ('spin the wheel') and playing their reset
  • It doubles as a calming reset and a way to learn about colleagues; the music people pick is the most revealing

they start meetings by randomly picking someone they call spin the wheel

Shishir Mehrotra · 32:30

actually the music people pick is one of the most interesting

Shishir Mehrotra · 33:00
#rituals#meetings#wellbeing#teams
Story33:00

Gusto Puts Your Whole Interview Panel on the Offer Call

Shishir describes a Gusto hiring ritual that surprised him. Instead of a recruiter alone delivering the offer, the entire group of people who interviewed the candidate joins the call and each says why the candidate is amazing and should join. Even people who voted no are on the call, because they'll work with the new hire and are expected to welcome them.

  • The whole interview panel joins the offer call, not just the recruiter
  • Each interviewer says something about why the candidate should join
  • Interviewers who voted 'no' still attend and help welcome the person
  • The ritual signals to the company how important hiring is

they have the entire group of people that interviewed you join the call and they all say something about why you're amazing and you should…

Shishir Mehrotra · 33:30

it doesn't matter you're on the call you're going to work with this person

Shishir Mehrotra · 34:00
#hiring#rituals#onboarding#teams
Story34:30

A Coinbase Trick That Fixed Coda's Decision-Making

Coda's 'pulse' ritual (everyone writes their opinion privately first) risked feeling like consensus voting, leaving decision-makers unsure whether they needed everyone to agree. Shishir borrowed a nudge from Coinbase's decision ritual: label each person's role (approver, responsible, decider, informed) and have the meeting owner pre-fill exactly what they need from each person. It preserved the anti-groupthink benefit while removing the consensus-to-a-fault problem.

  • Coda's 'pulse' could feel like voting or consensus-building
  • Decision-makers didn't know if they needed all responses to be yes
  • Coinbase organizes participants by role and asks the meeting owner to pre-fill what's needed from each
  • Coda added a role column to pulse; it fixed the consensus-to-a-fault danger

the person running the meeting pre-fills that with what they want from that person

Shishir Mehrotra · 37:00

i think consensus building is a good thing but consensability to a fault is not

Shishir Mehrotra · 37:30
#decision-making#rituals#meetings#coda
Story47:00

The 'Modern Family' Question That Split YouTube in 2008

In 2008 YouTube was seen as Google's first bad acquisition, and one of its hardest internal debates was the 'Modern Family question': people searched for the top TV show but YouTube didn't have it, so should YouTube link out to abc.com? The company split into a 'do right by the user' camp and a 'don't send traffic away' camp. Shishir reframed it as a bigger question, whether the video market would reward consistency or comprehensiveness, which made the original decision easy.

  • In 2008 YouTube was viewed as Google's first failed acquisition, losing money with big lawsuits
  • 'Modern Family' was a top search query, but YouTube didn't host the show
  • The company split: link out to abc.com (user-first) vs don't (content-partnership fears)
  • Reframing to 'consistency vs comprehensiveness' resolved it; ~15 years later he believes they were right

people would come search for one family one big ball we didn't have modern family on youtube

Shishir Mehrotra · 47:30

i value consistency over comprehensiveness

Shishir Mehrotra · 50:30
#youtube#product#decision-making#strategy
Story51:30

Taking the YouTube iPhone App Back From Apple

Because YouTube decided it valued consistency over comprehensiveness, Shishir drove to Cupertino and told Scott and Phil that YouTube would take back the iPhone YouTube app that Apple had built, which was missing nearly half the catalog and many features. Apple warned they'd start from zero downloads and break the old app, but agreed to notify users. Within about six months of relaunch YouTube had roughly 80% share.

  • Apple's built-in YouTube app couldn't play back nearly half the catalog
  • Shishir told Apple YouTube would rebuild and take over its own app
  • Apple warned: zero inherited downloads and the old app would break
  • The negotiated ask was that Apple tell users a new app existed; ~80% share within six months

so i drove down to cupertino and i sat down with with scott and phil and said hey we're gonna have to take back the…

Shishir Mehrotra · 51:30

we would much rather be on fewer phones or the more consistent experience than beyond all of them with an interesting experience

Shishir Mehrotra · 52:30
#youtube#apple#product#strategy
Story59:00

The Teleportation-Device Interview Question

To test whether a candidate can spot the questions that matter, Shishir poses a low-stakes puzzle: scientists have invented a teleportation device and hired you to bring it to market. After the candidate generates lots of questions, he reveals the scientists will answer only two of them, then expect a plan. Great candidates quickly zero in on the one or two questions (like 'is it safe for humans?' and 'is it cheaper to buy or to run?') that determine everything else; he notes kids are especially good at this.

  • The prompt: bring a scientists' teleportation device to market
  • Twist: the scientists will answer only two of your questions, then expect a plan
  • Strong candidates find the one or two questions that unlock the rest (safety; buy-cost vs run-cost)
  • He argues skills like this are best practiced in frivolous, low-stakes situations, not high-stakes ones

they've decided that they will answer only two of your questions and after that they expect a plan what two questions do you ask

Shishir Mehrotra · 1:00:00

we tend to only practice it in real world scenarios that are high stakes

Shishir Mehrotra · 58:30
#hiring#interviewing#product#decision-making

Tool· 2

Tool42:30

Book Rec: 'Switch' for Changing Things When Change Is Hard

Shishir recommends 'Switch' by Chip and Dan Heath, saying it would take two slots on a five-book list. Its model of a rider on an elephant on a path maps onto three levers for driving change: direct the rider (tell people what to do), motivate the elephant (branding, giving a ritual a name), and shape the path (make the desired behavior as easy as possible).

  • 'Switch' subtitle: how to change things when change is hard
  • Model: a rider on an elephant on a path
  • Direct the rider = tell people what to do (e.g. teach the ritual before their first Friday)
  • Motivate the elephant = branding / naming the ritual; shape the path = make it easy to follow

they use this analogy of an elephant a writer on an elephant on a path

Shishir Mehrotra · 42:30

the subtitle the book is how to change things when change is hard

Shishir Mehrotra · 42:30
#books#change-management#rituals#leadership
Tool1:24:30

Book Rec: 'Understanding Comics'

In the lightning round, Shishir recommends 'Understanding Comics', a comic book about comic books that he says you don't need to like comics to love. Its premise is that communication drifted to two extremes, written form and single pieces of art, and comics are the hybrid of drawing and writing. He values it because a diagram that crystallizes an idea is central to how he thinks and communicates.

  • 'Understanding Comics' is a comic book about comic books
  • You don't have to like comics to love it
  • Thesis: communication split into written form and art; comics are the hybrid
  • It reinforces his belief that diagrams crystallize ideas

it's a comic book about comic books and you don't have to like comic books at all to love this book

Shishir Mehrotra · 1:24:30
#books#communication#storytelling