Shishir Mehrotra of Coda, YouTube, Microsoft14 August 2022

The rituals of great teams

6Frameworks

13Insights

Episode overview

Coda co-founder and CEO Shishir Mehrotra explains the black and blue growth loops that shape Coda's product, pricing, and distribution. He shares research from his forthcoming book, Rituals of Great Teams, including practices from Coda, Gusto, Coinbase, and Thrive. The discussion also covers eigenquestions, the PSHE framework for evaluating talent, and why strong reference checks often provide better hiring evidence than interviews.

Key ideas

Products usually grow through reinforcing loops rather than linear funnels; Coda distinguishes team-sharing black loops from public-publishing blue loops.
Great companies establish a small set of named, widely understood, and templated golden rituals that reveal and reinforce their culture.
Coda's Dory and Pulse rituals collect independent opinions and prioritize questions before discussion, reducing bias and groupthink.
An eigenquestion is the question whose answer resolves the greatest number of subsequent questions, creating leverage in difficult decisions.
The PSHE framework evaluates whether someone excels at identifying problems, creating solutions, determining how work gets done, or executing a playbook.
Reference checks should draw contrasts between candidates' abilities and are often more informative than short, artificial interview scenarios.
Hiring exercises should balance home-court, away-court, and neutral-court questions, with work samples used to reveal a candidate's real capabilities.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Strategy6 steps

Black Loops and Blue Loops

Diagram your growth as loops, not funnels — then remove the friction on the sharing edge.

Read →

Communication5 steps

Dory and Pulse

Write opinions blind, upvote the questions, and mark each person's decision role.

Read →

Strategy6 steps

Eigen Questions

Rank open questions by how many other questions they kill, then answer that one first.

Read →

Leadership7 steps

Golden Rituals (Named, Known by Friday, Templated)

Culture is the product you build for employees; rituals are how you ship it.

Read →

Leadership5 steps

PSHE — Problem, Solution, How, Execution

Level people by how much of the problem-to-execution chain they own, not by scope.

Read →

Leadership8 steps

The Hiring Signal Stack Rank

Reference check beats work sample beats interview — and run the reference check first.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 10

Shishir MehrotraMentionsshashir marocha is the co-founder and ceo of koda before starting koda shashir led the youtube product engineering and design teams
“shashir marocha is the co-founder and ceo of koda”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
Lenny RachitskyUsestoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“i actually use coda myself every day it's kind of the center of my writing and podcasting operation”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
Casey WintersMentionswho's had the most influence on you in your career well we mentioned him before so I gotta bring him back up Casey Winters
“i think you just hosted casey winters he's like pretty famous for talking about loops not funnels”
▶ Watch at ~14:30approx.
Reid HoffmanMentionsSarah Tavel's former Greylock partner, credited with a maxim about strengths and weaknesses.
“i was interviewed for a different podcast called masters of scale by reed hoffman”
▶ Watch at ~25:30approx.
Dharmesh ShahCoinedone of the attendees there is darmesh founder of hubspot and very thoughtful person
“the term he uses for that is culture that's the product we built for employees”
▶ Watch at ~30:00approx.
Chip HeathCoinedthe best marketing textbook ever is Dan and Chip Heath's made to stick
“it's a book called switch it's by chip and dan heath”
▶ Watch at ~42:30approx.
Dan HeathCoinedthe best marketing textbook ever is Dan and Chip Heath's made to stick
“it's a book called switch it's by chip and dan heath”
▶ Watch at ~42:30approx.
Brian CheskyCoinedBrian chesky at Airbnb there was a whole article where we unpacked this moment in their product development cycle
“brian also has another one that's in the book that's about how to rank your to-do list by finding leverage”
▶ Watch at ~45:30approx.
Larry PageMentionswhen I was at Google the thing I took away most from any review and Lariat survey
“2011 larry page took over at google and he made a bunch of changes to the company”
▶ Watch at ~1:04:30approx.
Fidji SimoMentionsone of the people who I find to just be a really tremendous product thinker, leader, and ally for women is Fidji Simo.
“fiji simo is someone that i learned a lot from she now runs instacart”
▶ Watch at ~1:29:00approx.

Resources · 20

CodaUsessoftware · Coda
“i actually use coda myself every day”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
FlatfileMentionssoftware · Flatfile
“if you'd like to learn more or get started check out flat file at flatfile.com”
▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
SpotifyMentionssoftware · Spotify
“spent six years at microsoft here on spotify's board of directors”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
YouTubeMentionswebsite · Google
“you spent six years at google where you're a vp of product and engineering for youtube”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
GoogleMentionscompany · Google
“you spent six years at google where you're a vp of product and engineering for youtube”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
MicrosoftMentionscompany · Bill Gates and Paul Allen
“spent six years at microsoft here on spotify's board of directors”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
CodaMentionssoftware · Coda
“you can publish go to docs they show up in our in the gallery”
▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
Rituals of Great TeamsCoinedbook · Shishir Mehrotra and Erin Dame
“somebody's books called rituals of great teams”
▶ Watch at ~25:00approx.
Masters of ScaleMentionspodcast · Reid Hoffman
“i was interviewed for a different podcast called masters of scale by reed hoffman”
▶ Watch at ~25:30approx.
GustoMentionscompany
“another really fun one that i was surprised by gusto does this thing in their hiring call”
▶ Watch at ~33:00approx.
CoinbaseUsescompany · Brian Armstrong and Fred Ehrsam
“we sort of stole this one from coinbase and we switched it in and it like got better”
▶ Watch at ~37:30approx.
AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk
“i'm also reminded of airbnb's rituals which you probably already know about”
▶ Watch at ~44:30approx.
Modern FamilyMentionstv show
“one of the top five queries basically every week was for a show called modern family”
▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
AmazonMentionscompany · Jeff Bezos
“they were in this deep fight with amazon and they were getting their butts kicked”
▶ Watch at ~49:30approx.
OpticMentionscompany · Andrey Doronichev
“he started a company called optic which is basically building content id for nfts”
▶ Watch at ~55:30approx.
Understanding ComicsMentionsbook · Scott McCloud
“it's about understanding comics wow super fun book it's a comic book about comic books”
▶ Watch at ~1:24:30approx.
Only Murders in the BuildingRecommendstv show
“only murderers in the building is a really fun one”
▶ Watch at ~1:25:30approx.
WandaVisionRecommendstv show
“one division is like one of the best pieces of art that i've seen done in a very long time”
▶ Watch at ~1:26:00approx.
If I Had $1,000,000Recommendsother · Barenaked Ladies
“a karaoke song is if i had a million dollars by the barenaked ladies”
▶ Watch at ~1:30:00approx.
Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenniespodcast.com”
▶ Watch at ~1:31:30approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take30:00

Culture Is the Second Product You Build (for Employees)

Riffing on an idea from HubSpot founder Dharmesh Shah, Shishir reframes company culture as a product. Every company builds two products: one for customers and one for employees, and that second product is culture. He adds that rituals are the mirror of culture, which is why people describe a company's culture by naming its rituals.

Companies build two products: one for customers, one for employees
The product built for employees is culture
Rituals are a mirror of culture
When asked about a company's culture, people answer by describing its rituals

“we actually build two products we build one for our customers and we build another one for our employees”
Shishir Mehrotra · 30:00

“that's the product we built for employees”
Shishir Mehrotra · 30:00

#culture#rituals#leadership#teams

Hot Take1:20:30

Reference Checks Beat Interviews as a Hiring Signal

Shishir's strongest hiring opinion: if you stack-rank hiring signals, the reference check sits at the top, above interviews. Colleagues have worked with someone for years, so their read beats anything you can learn from 30 minutes of artificial interview scenarios. He does reference checks as early as practical, and they lead him to not hire 'all the time.' The second-best signal is a real work exercise.

Reference check is the #1 hiring signal, ahead of interviews
30 minutes of artificial interview scenarios can't match years of real coworking
He runs reference checks as early in the process as possible
References lead to a no-hire 'all the time'; a real work exercise is the second-best signal

“i generally value the reference check over interview signals you know if i had the stack rank in interviews what is the best signal the…”
Shishir Mehrotra · 1:20:30

“what you're gonna get out of 30 minutes of artificial scenarios it's just like never going to compare with what a good reference check will…”
Shishir Mehrotra · 1:21:00

#hiring#reference-checks#interviewing#leadership

Explainer· 3

Explainer11:30

Why Coda Only Charges the Person Who Makes a Doc

Shishir explains Coda's 'maker billing' pricing, which breaks from every other document product. Instead of charging editors and makers, Coda charges only when someone creates a document, so a team needs just one paid license. The reason is strategic: he wanted zero friction on the share action, because sharing is the product's growth moment.

Most document products charge for both editors and makers; Coda charges only for makers
A team using paid features needs only one paid license
The goal was 'no dollar signs' at the moment of sharing, the key growth loop
Charging at the share moment (as most productivity tools do) would kill sharing

“we're only going to charge for people when they make a document”
Shishir Mehrotra · 11:00

“i wanted no friction on the share end”
Shishir Mehrotra · 11:30

#pricing#growth#saas#coda

Explainer1:17:00

How to Run a Reference Check That Gets the Truth

Reference-check answers are distorted by perverse incentives: people don't like criticizing others and fear blowback. Shishir's techniques counter this by drawing contrast rather than asking directly. The ideal is to not even name who you're asking about, instead asking who on the team is best at a given thing. Alternatively, offer four personas as an 'out' so the reference can speak freely, and never reveal which trait you value.

People have perverse incentives in references and avoid criticizing others
Ideal: don't name the person, ask 'who on your team is best at X?'
Offer contrasting personas (finds problems / solves them / gets teams moving / executes a playbook)
Don't tell the reference what trait you value, or you'll bias the answer

“you don't even tell them who you're asking about right you say when you think of your teams who is best at that”
Shishir Mehrotra · 1:17:00

“if i want to know where they stand on this axis don't tell people what you value”
Shishir Mehrotra · 1:19:00

#hiring#reference-checks#interviewing#leadership

Explainer1:21:30

Home Court, Away Court, Neutral Court Interview Questions

Shishir frames interview questions in three types. Home-court questions ('what would you do about X at our company?') just test whether a candidate reached the same answer you did, which is a weak test. Away-court questions about the candidate's own past can hide whether the problem was actually hard. He favors neutral-court questions like the teleportation puzzle, plus a candidate presentation designed to let them 'upper bound' themselves rather than be lower-bounded by standard questions.

Home court: 'what would you do at our company?' only tests if they matched your answer
Away court: questions about their past can hide how hard the problem really was
Neutral court (e.g. the teleportation question) is fairest and least dependent on inside knowledge
The candidate presentation is a deliberate 'away court' brag session to upper-bound them

“a common mistake people make is they do all questions in home court”
Shishir Mehrotra · 1:22:00

“we're trying to lower bound you like how bad could this be i want you to upper bound us”
Shishir Mehrotra · 1:23:30

#hiring#interviewing#product#leadership

Story· 6

Story31:30

Ariana Huffington's 'Reset' Meeting Ritual

Shishir shares one of his favorite rituals, from Ariana Huffington. Each person records a personal one-minute breathing-exercise video with images, quotes, and music that matter to them. Meetings begin by spinning a wheel to pick someone at random and playing their reset, giving the team both a shared calming moment and a way to learn about each other.

A 'reset' is a personal one-minute breathing-exercise video
Videos include personal photos, favorite quotes, and music
Meetings start by randomly picking someone ('spin the wheel') and playing their reset
It doubles as a calming reset and a way to learn about colleagues; the music people pick is the most revealing

“they start meetings by randomly picking someone they call spin the wheel”
Shishir Mehrotra · 32:30

“actually the music people pick is one of the most interesting”
Shishir Mehrotra · 33:00

#rituals#meetings#wellbeing#teams

Story33:00

Gusto Puts Your Whole Interview Panel on the Offer Call

Shishir describes a Gusto hiring ritual that surprised him. Instead of a recruiter alone delivering the offer, the entire group of people who interviewed the candidate joins the call and each says why the candidate is amazing and should join. Even people who voted no are on the call, because they'll work with the new hire and are expected to welcome them.

The whole interview panel joins the offer call, not just the recruiter
Each interviewer says something about why the candidate should join
Interviewers who voted 'no' still attend and help welcome the person
The ritual signals to the company how important hiring is

“they have the entire group of people that interviewed you join the call and they all say something about why you're amazing and you should…”
Shishir Mehrotra · 33:30

“it doesn't matter you're on the call you're going to work with this person”
Shishir Mehrotra · 34:00

#hiring#rituals#onboarding#teams

Story34:30

A Coinbase Trick That Fixed Coda's Decision-Making

Coda's 'pulse' ritual (everyone writes their opinion privately first) risked feeling like consensus voting, leaving decision-makers unsure whether they needed everyone to agree. Shishir borrowed a nudge from Coinbase's decision ritual: label each person's role (approver, responsible, decider, informed) and have the meeting owner pre-fill exactly what they need from each person. It preserved the anti-groupthink benefit while removing the consensus-to-a-fault problem.

Coda's 'pulse' could feel like voting or consensus-building
Decision-makers didn't know if they needed all responses to be yes
Coinbase organizes participants by role and asks the meeting owner to pre-fill what's needed from each
Coda added a role column to pulse; it fixed the consensus-to-a-fault danger

“the person running the meeting pre-fills that with what they want from that person”
Shishir Mehrotra · 37:00

“i think consensus building is a good thing but consensability to a fault is not”
Shishir Mehrotra · 37:30

#decision-making#rituals#meetings#coda

Story47:00

The 'Modern Family' Question That Split YouTube in 2008

In 2008 YouTube was seen as Google's first bad acquisition, and one of its hardest internal debates was the 'Modern Family question': people searched for the top TV show but YouTube didn't have it, so should YouTube link out to abc.com? The company split into a 'do right by the user' camp and a 'don't send traffic away' camp. Shishir reframed it as a bigger question, whether the video market would reward consistency or comprehensiveness, which made the original decision easy.

In 2008 YouTube was viewed as Google's first failed acquisition, losing money with big lawsuits
'Modern Family' was a top search query, but YouTube didn't host the show
The company split: link out to abc.com (user-first) vs don't (content-partnership fears)
Reframing to 'consistency vs comprehensiveness' resolved it; ~15 years later he believes they were right

“people would come search for one family one big ball we didn't have modern family on youtube”
Shishir Mehrotra · 47:30

“i value consistency over comprehensiveness”
Shishir Mehrotra · 50:30

#youtube#product#decision-making#strategy

Story51:30

Taking the YouTube iPhone App Back From Apple

Because YouTube decided it valued consistency over comprehensiveness, Shishir drove to Cupertino and told Scott and Phil that YouTube would take back the iPhone YouTube app that Apple had built, which was missing nearly half the catalog and many features. Apple warned they'd start from zero downloads and break the old app, but agreed to notify users. Within about six months of relaunch YouTube had roughly 80% share.

Apple's built-in YouTube app couldn't play back nearly half the catalog
Shishir told Apple YouTube would rebuild and take over its own app
Apple warned: zero inherited downloads and the old app would break
The negotiated ask was that Apple tell users a new app existed; ~80% share within six months

“so i drove down to cupertino and i sat down with with scott and phil and said hey we're gonna have to take back the…”
Shishir Mehrotra · 51:30

“we would much rather be on fewer phones or the more consistent experience than beyond all of them with an interesting experience”
Shishir Mehrotra · 52:30

#youtube#apple#product#strategy

Story59:00

The Teleportation-Device Interview Question

To test whether a candidate can spot the questions that matter, Shishir poses a low-stakes puzzle: scientists have invented a teleportation device and hired you to bring it to market. After the candidate generates lots of questions, he reveals the scientists will answer only two of them, then expect a plan. Great candidates quickly zero in on the one or two questions (like 'is it safe for humans?' and 'is it cheaper to buy or to run?') that determine everything else; he notes kids are especially good at this.

The prompt: bring a scientists' teleportation device to market
Twist: the scientists will answer only two of your questions, then expect a plan
Strong candidates find the one or two questions that unlock the rest (safety; buy-cost vs run-cost)
He argues skills like this are best practiced in frivolous, low-stakes situations, not high-stakes ones

“they've decided that they will answer only two of your questions and after that they expect a plan what two questions do you ask”
Shishir Mehrotra · 1:00:00

“we tend to only practice it in real world scenarios that are high stakes”
Shishir Mehrotra · 58:30

#hiring#interviewing#product#decision-making

Tool· 2

Tool42:30

Book Rec: 'Switch' for Changing Things When Change Is Hard

Shishir recommends 'Switch' by Chip and Dan Heath, saying it would take two slots on a five-book list. Its model of a rider on an elephant on a path maps onto three levers for driving change: direct the rider (tell people what to do), motivate the elephant (branding, giving a ritual a name), and shape the path (make the desired behavior as easy as possible).

'Switch' subtitle: how to change things when change is hard
Model: a rider on an elephant on a path
Direct the rider = tell people what to do (e.g. teach the ritual before their first Friday)
Motivate the elephant = branding / naming the ritual; shape the path = make it easy to follow

“they use this analogy of an elephant a writer on an elephant on a path”
Shishir Mehrotra · 42:30

“the subtitle the book is how to change things when change is hard”
Shishir Mehrotra · 42:30

#books#change-management#rituals#leadership

Tool1:24:30

Book Rec: 'Understanding Comics'

In the lightning round, Shishir recommends 'Understanding Comics', a comic book about comic books that he says you don't need to like comics to love. Its premise is that communication drifted to two extremes, written form and single pieces of art, and comics are the hybrid of drawing and writing. He values it because a diagram that crystallizes an idea is central to how he thinks and communicates.

'Understanding Comics' is a comic book about comic books
You don't have to like comics to love it
Thesis: communication split into written form and art; comics are the hybrid
It reinforces his belief that diagrams crystallize ideas

“it's a comic book about comic books and you don't have to like comic books at all to love this book”
Shishir Mehrotra · 1:24:30

#books#communication#storytelling

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Black Loops and Blue Loops

Dory and Pulse

Eigen Questions

Golden Rituals (Named, Known by Friday, Templated)

PSHE — Problem, Solution, How, Execution

The Hiring Signal Stack Rank

People & resources mentioned

People · 10

Resources · 20

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 2

Culture Is the Second Product You Build (for Employees)

Reference Checks Beat Interviews as a Hiring Signal

✶Explainer· 3

Why Coda Only Charges the Person Who Makes a Doc

How to Run a Reference Check That Gets the Truth

Home Court, Away Court, Neutral Court Interview Questions

❝Story· 6

Ariana Huffington's 'Reset' Meeting Ritual

Gusto Puts Your Whole Interview Panel on the Offer Call

A Coinbase Trick That Fixed Coda's Decision-Making

The 'Modern Family' Question That Split YouTube in 2008

Taking the YouTube iPhone App Back From Apple

The Teleportation-Device Interview Question

✦Tool· 2

Book Rec: 'Switch' for Changing Things When Change Is Hard

Book Rec: 'Understanding Comics'

Hot Take· 2

Explainer· 3

Story· 6

Tool· 2