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Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at St13 June 2024

The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career

5Frameworks
14Insights

Episode overview

Stanford professor Jeffrey Pfeffer explains seven learnable rules for accumulating and exercising power, including building a visible brand, networking generously, appearing powerful, and asking for help. He argues that political skill predicts favorable career outcomes and that practice, coaching, and progressively stretching beyond one's comfort zone turn these ideas into usable skills. The conversation also examines power's costs—reduced autonomy, greater scrutiny, and pressure on family—and frames power as a neutral tool that good people need in order to create change.

Key ideas

  • Political skill is associated with higher salary, promotion, job satisfaction, career happiness, and lower stress.
  • The seven rules are to get out of your own way, break rules, appear powerful, build a powerful brand, network relentlessly, use power, and recognize that success often excuses past conduct.
  • Visibility and substance must coexist: strong work cannot advance a career if relevant decision-makers do not know it exists.
  • Networking works best as generosity and brokerage—helping people, making introductions, and connecting otherwise separate groups.
  • Weak ties supply less redundant information and can expose people to better opportunities than close relationships alone.
  • Power skills are learnable through goal setting, deliberate practice, coaching, feedback, and gradually moving beyond one's comfort zone.
  • Using authority to produce results attracts more resources, followers, opportunities, and responsibility, creating a self-reinforcing cycle of power.
  • Power carries meaningful costs, including reduced control over one's time, heightened public scrutiny, less privacy, and strain on close relationships.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 25

  • Jeffrey PfefferMentionsHe teaches this class at Stanford Business School about how to how to gain power in the world.

    Today my guest is Jeffrey Pfeffer. Jeffrey's a professor of organizational behavior at Stanford's Graduate School of Business

  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    Thank you, Lenny. I am honored that you invited me on.

  • Gerald FerrisMentionsdeveloped a scale of kind of political skill

    a guy named Gerald Ferris developed a scale of kind of political skill

  • Laura EssermanMentionsLaura Esserman is a breast cancer surgeon

    Laura Esserman is a breast cancer surgeon, and I tell people Laura has a knife, she uses it to to cure cancer.

  • Derek KanMentionswound up at the end of the Trump administration as the deputy director of Office of Management and Budget

    My most extreme example is probably Derek Kahn, K A N.

  • Keith FerrazziMentionswhen he started at Deloitte Consulting

    So my friend Keith Ferrazzi, when he started at Deloitte Consulting, did not do the spreadsheet stuff

  • Tristan WalkerMentionswanted to get hired at Foursquare

    I have another friend, Tristan Walker, who wanted to get hired at Foursquare.

  • Laura ChauMentionsmade partner at a venture capital firm after 4 years

    a lovely tall Asian woman named Laura Chau, who made partner at a venture capital firm after 4 years

  • Robert SuttonMentionsmy dear friend Bob Sutton's book

    You don't want to violate my dear friend Bob Sutton's book

  • Francis FlynnCoinedmy colleague Francis Flynn, Frank Flynn, wrote an article with Vanessa Lake

    my colleague Francis Flynn, Frank Flynn, wrote an article with Vanessa Lake entitled, "If You Need Help, Just Ask."

  • Vanessa LakeCoinedwrote an article with Vanessa Lake

    wrote an article with Vanessa Lake entitled, "If You Need Help, Just Ask."

  • Jason CalacanisMentionsbegan his career in journalism

    One of my favorite examples would be Jason Calacanis.

  • Jon LevyCoinedhas written a fabulous book You're Invited

    My friend John Levy who has written a fabulous book You're Invited

  • Omid KordestaniMentionsbecomes employee number 11 at Google

    It is Omid Kordestani, who becomes employee number 11 at Google and makes two and a half billion dollars.

  • Leanne WilliamsMentionswho's in the psychiatry and behavioral science department

    You should know Leanne Williams, who's in the psychiatry and behavioral science department

  • Esther WojcickiMentionsShe's considered the grandmother of Silicon Valley

    I recently met Esther Wojcicki. I'm sure I you know, killed her name. She's considered the grandmother of Silicon Valley.

  • Mark GranovetterCoineda sociologist who still teaches at Stanford

    Mark Granovetter, a sociologist who still teaches at Stanford, wrote a book entitled The Strength of Weak Ties.

  • Deborah GruenfeldCoinedwho wrote a book called Acting with Power

    My friend Deborah Gruenfeld, who wrote a book called Acting with Power

  • Herminia IbarraMentionswho teaches now at London Business School

    Herminia Ibarra, who teaches now at London Business School, at one point taught at INSEAD, at one point taught at Harvard

  • Dana CarneyCoinedmy colleague at Berkeley

    my colleague at Berkeley, Dana Carney, c a r n e y s writing a book called Tell

  • Regis McKennaMentionsfamous for running a very, very, very fancy public relations firm in the Silicon Valley

    There's a guy named Regis McKenna, who is older than God, who's famous for running a very, very, very fancy public relations firm

  • Steve JobsMentionsSteve Jobs is just uh the bar he held for the company and for technical talent and for excellence was not uh wavering.

    Regis McKenna and his team took Steve Jobs under their wing and created Steve Jobs, a man who could sell anything to anybody.

  • Jack ValentiMentionsfor 38 years was the head of the Motion Picture Association of America

    Jack Valenti, who I had the privilege of knowing, who for 38 years was the head of the Motion Picture Association of America

  • Donald TrumpMentionsthere's about three pages in the book where I basically say being a bit Donald Trump has its virtues

    At the beginning of your book, you say that basically you were going to write a book about why Trump is so successful

  • James G. MarchCoineda very, very distinguished scholar

    James March said to me many, many years ago something which is completely true. You can have power or you can have autonomy

Resources · 21

  • Touchy FeelyMentionscourse

    The other class, by the way, is Touchy Feely, which we dove into last month.

  • Paths to PowerCoinedcourse · Jeffrey Pfeffer

    teaches one of the two most popular and oversubscribed courses in all of the MBA program called The Paths to Power

  • Seven Rules of PowerCoinedbook · Jeffrey Pfeffer

    In his class and in his recent book, The Seven Rules of Power, Jeffrey teaches the things that you can do

  • Stanford Graduate School of BusinessMentionscompany · Stanford University

    Jeffrey's a professor of organizational behavior at Stanford's Graduate School of Business

  • UizardUsessoftware

    With Wizard, I can simply upload my screenshot and Wizard's AI will turn them into a fully editable UI design

  • WebflowRecommendssoftware · Webflow

    Learn how teams like Dropbox, IDEO, and Orangetheory trust Webflow to achieve their most ambitious goals today at webflow.com.

  • The Knowing-Doing GapCoinedbook · Jeffrey Pfeffer and Robert I. Sutton

    You have a book, The Doing The Knowing-Doing Gap, right? The Knowing-Doing Gap.

  • FoursquareMentionssoftware · Foursquare

    Tristan Walker, who wanted to get hired at Foursquare.

  • Canaan PartnersMentionscompany

    Laura went works for Canaan Partners, c a n a a.

  • If You Need Help, Just AskCoinedpaper · Francis Flynn and Vanessa Lake

    Frank Flynn, wrote an article with Vanessa Lake entitled, "If You Need Help, Just Ask."

  • NetscapeMentionscompany · Marc Andreessen and Jim Clark

    Then I found myself in the mid-90s at Netscape, the browser company

  • GoogleMentionscompany · Google

    It is Omid Kordestani, who becomes employee number 11 at Google and makes two and a half billion dollars.

  • HeapRecommendssoftware

    Visit heap.io/lenny to get started with a demo.

  • Getting a JobCoinedbook · Mark Granovetter

    His book was called Getting a Job. And he did a study, I guess he was at that time in Boston.

  • The Strength of Weak TiesCoinedpaper · Mark Granovetter

    no actually, pardon me, he wrote an article called The Strength of Weak Ties.

  • Acting with PowerCoinedbook · Deborah Gruenfeld

    My friend Deborah Gruenfeld, who wrote a book called Acting with Power

  • Chimpanzee PoliticsMentionsbook · Frans de Waal

    when Jim Collins left Stanford, he gave me a book called Chimpanzee Politics

  • TellCoinedbook · Dana Carney

    Dana Carney, c a r n e y s writing a book called Tell, which is about the importance of body language

  • PBS NewsHourMentionstv show

    She was on the CB uh PBS NewsHour about this.

  • Athena Breast Health NetworkMentionsother · Laura Esserman and collaborators

    Was at a thing where she launched the Athena project.

  • Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster03:00

Power Is a Tool — We Confuse It With How It's Used

Pfeffer argues that people recoil from power because they see it used for bad ends, but the tool itself is neutral. He points to research by Gerald Ferris showing political skill correlates with salary, promotion, career happiness, and lower stress. Just as a knife cures cancer in a surgeon's hand or robs people in a mugger's, power's morality lives in its use, not the thing itself.

  • Gerald Ferris's political-skill scale links political skill to salary, promotions, job happiness and less stress
  • People confuse the tool of power with the bad ends some people put it to
  • A hammer, screwdriver, or surgeon's knife is useful even though others misuse the same object
  • 'If you want power to be used for good, more good people need to have power'

That does not mean that a hammer is not a useful tool.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 04:00

the reason why you should pay attention to this is because it leads to a lot of good things.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 03:30
#power#influence#career#mindset

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take27:30

Just Ask — The Worst Answer Is No

Pfeffer challenges the conventional wisdom that you should show self-sufficiency and never ask for help, citing Frank Flynn and Vanessa Lake's article 'If You Need Help, Just Ask' — people overestimate how many they'll have to ask. He drives it home personally: he married a woman who looked like a supermodel simply because he asked. The math is one-sided — if you don't ask you won't get it, and if you ask and they say no you're no worse off.

  • The 'don't ask, show self-sufficiency' norm is followed far too much
  • People overestimate how many they'd have to ask before getting help
  • Pfeffer's answer to how he got his supermodel-looking wife: 'I asked'
  • Asking has no downside — a no leaves you exactly where you started

Get over your ego. Ask.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 28:30

And what is the worst that could happen? If you ask and they say no, you are no worse off than had you not asked…

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 28:30
#asking#break-the-rules#help#ego
Hot Take59:00

Success Excuses Almost Everything

Pfeffer's seventh and most uncomfortable rule: once you have power, what you did to get there is forgiven, forgotten, or both. People fear the myth of Icarus, but life isn't homeostatic — it's self-fulfilling, and power compounds. He lists the forgotten sins of Bill Gates, Jeffrey Epstein, and Martha Stewart, and a bankruptcy executive who lost billions of other people's money yet walked away with $700 million and everyone's admiration.

  • The fear that you'll be 'brought low' (the Icarus myth) is usually wrong
  • Life is self-fulfilling: believed-powerful people become more powerful
  • Gates, Epstein and Martha Stewart's transgressions were largely forgotten
  • People want to be close to money, power and success and overlook flaws to get there

people forget that Bill Gates stole the code on which Microsoft is built.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 1:01:30

People want to be close to money, power, and success. And they will overlook your flaws to be close to you.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 1:03:00
#power#reputation#hot-take#success
Hot Take1:10:30

You Can Have Power or Autonomy — Not Both

Asked why the man who teaches power isn't the most powerful man in the world, Pfeffer quotes scholar James March: you can have power or autonomy, but not both. He chose freedom. A dean whose wife was dying still had to raise money and show up at events; Pfeffer, by contrast, controls his own schedule and keeps no assistant and no public calendar. Time, going in only one direction, is worth more to him than any title.

  • James March's maxim: power and autonomy are mutually exclusive
  • Pfeffer deliberately chose a life of autonomy over positional power
  • A powerful dean lost control of his own time even while his wife was dying
  • Pfeffer controls his own schedule and keeps no public calendar

You can have power or you can have autonomy, but you cannot have both.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 1:11:00

I control my schedule. You will not find my Outlook calendar on any website or on any computer.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 1:12:30
#autonomy#power#tradeoffs#freedom

Explainer· 5

Explainer09:30

Suspend Judgment on Anyone Who's on Your Critical Path

Because you get things done through and with other people, judging a colleague as dumb or immoral destroys your ability to build the working relationship you need. Pfeffer's rule: the only judgment worth making about someone on your critical path is that they're on your critical path. He notes senior executives share one mastered skill — you can never tell what they think of you.

  • Jobs entail interdependence; you need others' collaboration to get things done
  • Deciding you dislike someone drops your odds of productive collaboration toward zero
  • The only judgment to make is whether someone is on your critical path
  • Top executives master hiding what they think of you

the only judgement you should make is they're on my critical path.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 10:30

they they have a skill that you cannot tell what they think of you.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 10:30
#relationships#judgment#collaboration#power
Explainer15:30

Nobody Promotes You If They Don't Know Who You Are

Since there are fewer positions at the top than the bottom, advancing means getting promoted — and no one promotes someone they don't know. Pfeffer illustrates with Keith Ferrazzi launching the Lincoln Quality Award at Deloitte and Tristan Walker signing up partnerships (including Starbucks) to force his way into Foursquare. Visibility and substance are both required: visibility without substance reads as useless, substance without visibility goes unseen.

  • The world is hierarchical, so advancing means figuring out how to get promoted
  • You can't be chosen for what people don't know about you
  • Keith Ferrazzi built Deloitte's brand recognition instead of doing spreadsheets he was bad at
  • Tristan Walker signed up Starbucks to get himself hired at Foursquare
  • Visibility and substance are both necessary; neither works alone

No one is going to promote Lenny if they don't know who the hell you are.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 16:30

If you have visibility without substance people will know you're like useless. But if you have substance without visibility no one will know the substance…

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 20:30
#personal-brand#visibility#career#promotion
Explainer21:30

Stop the Preemptory Apology — Don't Disempower Yourself

A major way people get in their own way is imposter syndrome — believing they were the admissions or hiring 'mistake.' Pfeffer flags 'preemptory apology,' where students open with 'I don't know if this comment is going to be useful.' If it's not useful, don't say it; if it is, don't apologize for it. The deeper danger: a disempowering self-image leaks out and others start to doubt you too.

  • Imposter syndrome makes capable people feel undeserving of jobs they've earned
  • Preemptory apologies ('pardon me for interrupting') signal you don't belong
  • If you got the job you're probably not just qualified but overqualified
  • Believing you don't deserve your role leaks out and lowers others' opinion of you

This is called preemptory apology.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 22:30

don't use descriptors of yourself that disempower you.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 22:30
#imposter-syndrome#confidence#self-talk#power
Explainer30:30

Networking Is Generosity — and Weak Ties Get You the Best Jobs

People find networking dirty because they think about it wrong; its first principle is generosity — what can I do for you, who can I introduce you to. But you can only broker introductions if you know people, so a broad network is itself a source of knowledge and power. Pfeffer adds Granovetter's 'strength of weak ties': the best jobs come through people who aren't close to you, because they have a view into parts of the ecosystem your inner circle can't see.

  • The first principle of networking is generosity, not extraction
  • Being a broker who connects people who benefit from each other creates value and credit
  • Strongly-tied people know the same things and people you already do (redundant)
  • Mark Granovetter's research: the best jobs come via weak-tie referrals into other ecosystems

the first principle of networking is in fact generosity.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 30:30

the best jobs that that people got were referred to them by people that were not particularly close to them

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 41:00
#networking#weak-ties#generosity#knowledge
Explainer44:30

Showing Up Powerful Is a Skill, Not a Personality

We respond mostly to how people look, then how they sound, and least to what they actually say. Pfeffer insists presence is learnable, not innate: PR man Regis McKenna turned an early Steve Jobs — who 'couldn't convince you to buy water if you were dying of thirst' — into a man who could sell anything. The 5'2" lobbyist Jack Valenti 'felt taller than he is' through body language, drawl, and command of his material.

  • People respond first to appearance, second to sound, least to content
  • Regis McKenna's team created the presentational Steve Jobs from a poor early speaker
  • Presence is a skill like acting — Robert De Niro's skills were learned, not born
  • 5'2" Jack Valenti projected size through presence, body language, and mastery of the material

When Steve Jobs began, Steve Jobs couldn't convince you to buy water if you were dying of thirst.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 47:00

he feels taller than he is.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 50:00
#body-language#presence#communication#skills

Story· 3

Story14:00

The Student Whose Class Project Ran the $6 Trillion US Budget

Pfeffer's 'doing power' assignment asks students to put the course into practice during the quarter. His most extreme example: Derek Kahn, whose project was to get appointed head of economic policy for Mitt Romney's 2012 campaign — he was offered the job and turned it down. He went to the Transportation Department and ended the Trump administration essentially running the $6 trillion federal budget, six years out of business school.

  • The 'doing power' assignment forces students to apply the material in the real world
  • Derek Kahn's project landed him an offer to run economic policy for the Romney campaign
  • He became number three at the Transportation Department under Elaine Chao
  • He ended up effectively running the $6 trillion US budget six years after his MBA

he essentially ran the $6 trillion US budget.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 15:00
#career#power#story#practice
Story32:00

The Netscape Guy Who Stopped Doing His Job — and Became Google #11

Omid Kordestani, stuck in marketing at Netscape, decided to take Pfeffer's class 'to an extreme' by stopping his actual job and networking full-time — first inside Netscape, then driving across Silicon Valley meeting everyone as browsers emerged. When a tiny 10-engineer company (Google) asked around for the best technically-oriented business person, his name appeared on every list. He became employee number 11 and made two and a half billion dollars.

  • Kordestani stopped doing his assigned job to network instead
  • Being well-connected to senior leaders meant they didn't care if he did his tasks
  • He often found other people to do the work he'd been given
  • His networking made him the one name on everyone's list when Google needed a business hire

So, one day I decided to take your class to an extreme. I decided to stop doing my job.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 33:00

It is Omid Kordestani, who becomes employee number 11 at Google and makes two and a half billion dollars.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 35:00
#networking#career#story#silicon-valley
Story1:04:30

Reduce the Friction: How a Cancer Surgeon Changed Medicine

Breast cancer surgeon Laura Esserman refused to network — 'I don't have time for schmoozing' — and got eviscerated when she came to Pfeffer's class. Over lunch, furious, she heard Pfeffer reframe it in physics: she was a force of nature creating friction, and reducing that friction would multiply what she could accomplish. She changed, went on to win nearly every cancer award and make Time's 100 most influential list. Medicine, Pfeffer told her, doesn't change without power.

  • Esserman was brilliant and well-intentioned but refused to network
  • Pfeffer reframed her force-of-nature energy as friction she could reduce
  • She changed and went on to win major awards and Time's 100 most influential (2016)
  • Entrenched interests mean change requires the application of power and influence

You are creating friction. With enough force, you could overcome the friction. If you reduce the friction, just think how much more you could accomplish.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 1:06:30

Medicine is not going to change without the application of power and influence.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 1:08:30
#story#power-for-good#networking#change

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway51:30

Denial to Acceptance — Push a Little Past Your Comfort Zone

Pfeffer tells students they'll move through denial, anger, sadness, and acceptance in ten weeks, and he gets them there with practice and coaching rather than lectures. The method is incremental: you don't swim the English Channel on day one, you start in a pool and make each day slightly harder. The point isn't to become as bold as Jason Calacanis overnight — it's to push just past your comfort zone, because staying inside it guarantees nothing changes.

  • Students pass through denial, anger, sadness, and acceptance over the quarter
  • Practice and coaching, not lectures, drive the transition
  • Growth is incremental — start in the pool before the English Channel
  • Staying in your comfort zone guarantees you never do anything different or better

If you always stay in your comfort zone, you will never do anything different or better than what you're currently doing.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 54:00
#growth#comfort-zone#practice#coaching
Takeaway1:17:00

The One Homework Assignment: Get a Coach

Asked what listeners should do first, Pfeffer's answer flows from the whole conversation: this work is uncomfortable, and you shouldn't do uncomfortable things alone. Get a coach and build a personal board of directors — people who give you advice, social support, and accountability. Just as you couldn't build a successful podcast entirely alone, you can't build power skills without help. It's really rule one — get out of your own way — via asking for help.

  • Don't attempt uncomfortable growth without social support
  • Get a coach — Pfeffer regularly shares his class coaches' list
  • Build a personal board of directors for advice, support, and accountability
  • Getting help is itself an application of rule one, getting out of your own way

Get a coach. Get a personal board of directors like they talk about in the Wall Street Journal.

Jeffrey Pfeffer · 1:18:00
#coaching#accountability#takeaway#support