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Sean Ellis (author of “Hacking Growth”)05 September 2024

The original growth hacker reveals his secrets

6Frameworks
15Insights

Episode overview

Lenny Rachitsky interviews Sean Ellis about using the Sean Ellis Test as a leading indicator of product-market fit and learning from users who would be very disappointed without a product. Ellis explains how sharper positioning and faster time to value raised Lookout's score from 7% to 40% in two weeks. They then trace a sustainable growth sequence from activation and engagement through referrals, monetization, and scalable acquisition, emphasizing a blend of qualitative customer research and quantitative experimentation.

Key ideas

  • Ask activated, recently engaged users how they would feel if they could no longer use the product; the very-disappointed segment reveals must-have value.
  • Treat 40% as a useful team target and leading indicator, not a rigid proof of product-market fit; retention cohorts remain the lagging behavioral test.
  • Study who the must-have users are, which primary benefit they receive, why it matters, what alternative they would use, and how they discovered the product.
  • Improve product-market-fit scores by aligning positioning with the valued benefit and shortening onboarding's time to value for the right users.
  • When learning from somewhat-disappointed users, focus only on those seeking the same core benefit as must-have users so improvements do not dilute the product.
  • Sequence growth work around activation, engagement, referrals, and monetization before aggressively scaling customer acquisition.
  • Choose a North Star metric that measures units of customer value, can rise over time, and correlates with revenue without simply being revenue.
  • Combine qualitative customer conversations with analytics and experiments; clearly stating the actual user problem often reveals the highest-leverage test.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Strategy2 steps

Freemium Two-Product Rule

Make the free tier good enough to spark word of mouth and the paid tier different enough to justify upgrading

Read →
Productivity3 steps

ICE Prioritization

Score every experiment idea on Impact, Confidence and Ease to run a high-velocity testing program fairly

Read →
Marketing4 steps

Move the PMF Score: Reposition + Speed to Value

Raise a low product-market-fit score without changing the product — refocus expectations and collapse time-to-value

Read →
Marketing4 steps

Must-Have Benefit Excavation

A three-question survey sequence that turns 'they like it' into the exact hook that acquires customers

Read →
Marketing4 steps

The Sean Ellis Test

A one-question survey that reveals product-market fit before your retention data can

Read →
Marketing5 steps

Value Delivery Engine: Activation-First Growth Sequence

Fix conversion, engagement, referral and revenue before you obsess over acquisition

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 12

  • Sean EllisCoinedAssociated with the product-market-fit survey question about disappointment if a product disappeared.

    “he coined the term growth hacking invented the ice prioritization framework”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • Sean EllisMentionsAssociated with the product-market-fit survey question about disappointment if a product disappeared.

    “Shawn was head of growth at Dropbox and Eventbrite”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    “thanks Lenny I'm I'm super excited to be on with you”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • Shreyas DoshiMentionsHe reflects on roughly 20 years in product work and leadership roles at Google, Twitter, and Stripe.

    “one came in from Shas Doshi uh popular guest”

    ▶ Watch at ~23:30approx.
  • Rahul VohraMentionsRahul from superhuman is kind of well known for his approach to finding product Market fit

    “did Rahul and the team there just do this on their own”

    ▶ Watch at ~43:00approx.
  • Charles KetteringMentionsone of my favorite quotes is a quote from a guy ketering

    “one of my favorite quotes is a quote from a guy ketering”

    ▶ Watch at ~57:30approx.
  • Drew HoustonMentionseven when I first started talking with with Drew before I came in

    “even when I first started talking with with Drew before I came in”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:12:30approx.
  • Jamie SiminoffCoinedmy friend who actually started uh who started ring um Jamie simonoff

    “my friend who actually started uh who started ring um Jamie simonoff”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:13:00approx.
  • Albert NiCoinedthe guy who built it um was actually an intern named Albert KNE

    “the guy who built it um was actually an intern named Albert KNE”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:14:00approx.
  • Mark ZuckerbergMentionsit was sort of a random decision for Mark Zuckerberg to move from a uh monthly active to a daily active

    “it was sort of a random decision for Mark Zuckerberg to move from a uh monthly active to a daily active”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:18:00approx.
  • Andrew ChenMentionsA former colleague of Lenny Rachitsky, explicitly distinguished from the better-known investor with the same name.

    “Andrew Chen who uh is currently partner at a16z”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:24:30approx.
  • Oleg YakubenkovMentionsadvice that I that I heard from uh guy OLG yakubov

    “advice that I that I heard from uh guy OLG yakubov”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:33:00approx.

Resources · 35

  • Sean Ellis TestCoinedtool · Sean Ellis

    “maybe most famously developed the Sha Ellis test to help you understand if you have product Market fit”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • ICE prioritization frameworkCoinedother · Sean Ellis

    “invented the ice prioritization framework”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • DropboxMentionscompany · Drew Houston and Arash Ferdowsi

    “Shawn was head of growth at Dropbox and Eventbrite”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • LogMeInMentionscompany

    “was on the founding team of log me in which eventually sold for over $4 billion”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • EventbriteMentionscompany · Eventbrite

    “Shawn was head of growth at Dropbox and Eventbrite”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • Hacking GrowthCoinedbook · Sean Ellis and Morgan Brown

    “he's the author of one of the most popular growth books of all time called hacking growth”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “welcome to the podcast”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • GammaMentionssoftware · Gamma

    “this episode is brought to you by gamma an entirely new way to present your ideas powered by AI”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
  • Lenny's NewsletterMentionsnewsletter · Lenny Rachitsky

    “your favorite Lenny's newsletter post and turn it into a presentation for your team”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • CommandBarMentionssoftware · CommandBar

    “command bar is an AI powered toolkit for product growth marketing and customer teams”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk

    “like your time at Airbnb what how long do you have to look at a retention cohort”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • LookoutMentionscompany

    “the company called called Lookout it's a mobile security company”

    ▶ Watch at ~9:30approx.
  • XobniUsessoftware

    “when I was working with uh an early YC company called um zne and uh which is Inbox spelt backwards”

    ▶ Watch at ~15:30approx.
  • HookedRecommendsbook · Nir Eyal

    “one of my favorite books is uh hooked by nearer all”

    ▶ Watch at ~19:00approx.
  • Webs.comMentionscompany

    “this is a a business called um webs.com”

    ▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
  • SurveyMonkeyRecommendssoftware

    “I think just like using Survey Monkey with uh with emailed surveys works fine”

    ▶ Watch at ~36:30approx.
  • QualarooUsessoftware · Sean Ellis and partners

    “it's called qualaroo that's like kind of yeah inflow survey tool”

    ▶ Watch at ~36:30approx.
  • IntercomUsescompany · Intercom

    “they had already intercom in place that had just introduced surveying”

    ▶ Watch at ~37:00approx.
  • NubankMentionscompany

    “every new product at new bank they build”

    ▶ Watch at ~39:00approx.
  • SuperhumanMentionssoftware · Superhuman

    “one of the other companies that I think yeah used it in an interesting way is superum”

    ▶ Watch at ~40:30approx.
  • First Round ReviewMentionswebsite · First Round Capital

    “they posted something about how they did it on first round capitals blog”

    ▶ Watch at ~41:00approx.
  • pmfsurvey.comRecommendswebsite · Sean Ellis

    “the template that I I typically used was then moved to pmfs survey.com”

    ▶ Watch at ~44:30approx.
  • MergeMentionscompany · Merge

    “their single API helps SAS companies launch over 200 product Integrations in weeks not quarters”

    ▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
  • BounceMentionscompany

    “bounce is a really interesting example where SEO was super important for for bounce”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:05:30approx.
  • DropboxUsescompany · Drew Houston and Arash Ferdowsi

    “we we had tried a a similar kind of referral program at zne”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:13:30approx.
  • FacebookMentionscompany · Meta

    “Facebook when they change their Northstar metric from monthly active users to daily active users”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:17:30approx.
  • AmazonMentionscompany · Jeff Bezos

    “monthly purchases is is great because it it like um maps to Value uh that people are getting from Amazon”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:21:30approx.
  • ChatGPTUsessoftware · OpenAI

    “I I go to chat GPT and say how would sea Ellis answer this”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30:30approx.
  • GoPracticeCoinedcourse · Oleg Yakubenkov and Sean Ellis

    “I actually have a a course with him called go practice”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:33:00approx.
  • Presenting to WinRecommendsbook · Jerry Weissman

    “increasingly I I'm recommending a book called presenting to win”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:35:00approx.
  • Olympic GamesRecommendsevent

    “I've been binging the Olympics I love that”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:36:00approx.
  • BlackBerryRecommendsfilm · Matt Johnson

    “the movie um I actually just saw Blackberry”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:36:30approx.
  • TetrisRecommendsfilm · Jon S. Baird

    “there's also an amazing movie called Tetris”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:37:00approx.
  • TikTokMentionssoftware · ByteDance

    “all the early stuff we did to grow Tik Tok was based on your writing”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:40:30approx.
  • GoPracticeRecommendscourse · Oleg Yakubenkov and Sean Ellis

    “check out uh check out go practice”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:42:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take17:30

The Famous 40% Threshold Isn't Actually Firm

Sean reveals the 40% number emerged from pattern-matching across many startups, not rigorous science, and he doesn't treat it as a hard line. Its real value is giving a team a shared target so everyone agrees on when to stop iterating and start aggressively growing.

  • 39% vs 41% isn't a meaningful distinction
  • The 40% figure was pattern-recognized across many Silicon Valley startups, not derived scientifically
  • The real power is a shared target that aligns the team on when to step on the gas
  • Early-stage teams often split between 'we're years away' and 'what are we waiting for'

“I don't think it's that firm you know to me I think the real power is having some kind of some kind of Target for…”

Sean Ellis · 17:30
#product-market-fit#metrics#team-alignment
Hot Take45:30

Sean Ellis: Growth Hacking Was Never About One-Off Hacks

The man who coined 'growth hacking' pushes back on how the term got interpreted. He never meant a bag of one-off tricks; he meant scrutinizing every single thing you do for its impact on sustainable growth. He half-jokes he may have picked the wrong term, but a slightly divisive name got more people rethinking how growth works.

  • He did not conceive growth hacking as a bunch of one-off hacks
  • The real meaning: scrutinize everything you do for its impact on growth
  • Startups can't afford textbook marketing's 'do everything' approach
  • A slightly divisive term avoided going unnoticed and opened the conversation

“when I coined growth hacking I I did not think of it as a bunch of oneoff hacks that what what I thought of it…”

Sean Ellis · 46:00
#growth-hacking#definitions#marketing
Hot Take1:14:30

Referral Programs Accelerate Growth — They Can't Create It

Sean points out that the legendary Dropbox referral program worked because Dropbox already had an amazing organic referral rate. Companies that copy it hoping to manufacture word of mouth are missing the point: a referral program is a great accelerant when sharing already works, but it can't fix a product people don't want to talk about.

  • Dropbox already had a strong referral rate before the incentivized program
  • Copycats add referral incentives to compensate for weak word of mouth, and it fails
  • A referral program is a great accelerant only when sharing is already happening
  • It can't fix a product people don't want to talk about

“to to me I think it's it's a great accelerate when it's already working but it it can't it can't fix it if if people…”

Sean Ellis · 1:15:00
#referrals#word-of-mouth#dropbox

Explainer· 1

Explainer1:15:30

The Freemium Mistake: Making the Free Version Too Weak

Having been one of the first to use freemium, Sean explains what actually makes it work. The free product has to be so good that people naturally spread it by word of mouth, while the premium version must be differentiated enough to justify upgrading. Most teams worry so much about protecting the paid tier that they cripple the free one, then wonder why word of mouth is weak.

  • The free product must be good enough to generate natural word of mouth
  • The premium product must be better and differentiated enough that people upgrade
  • Teams often make the free version weak to protect the paid one
  • A weak free version kills the word of mouth freemium depends on
  • You essentially need two distinct products that are each great on their own

“it it needs to be that your free product is so good that people naturally have Word of Mouth around that product”

Sean Ellis · 1:16:00

“a lot of times people are so worried about the second part that they make the free version not very good and then they're surprised…”

Sean Ellis · 1:16:30
#freemium#monetization#word-of-mouth

Story· 8

Story09:00

How Lookout Went From 7% to 40% Must-Have in Two Weeks

Sean took a growth role at mobile security company Lookout only to find just 7% of users would be very disappointed to lose it. Digging into that 7% revealed they all valued the antivirus feature, so he repositioned the whole product around antivirus and streamlined onboarding to deliver protection fast. The next survey cohort hit 40%, and the company later reached a billion-dollar valuation.

  • Initial Sean Ellis test came back at only 7% very disappointed
  • The 7% were focused on the antivirus functionality specifically
  • Fix step one: reposition the product on antivirus to filter for the right users
  • Fix step two: streamline onboarding so users set up antivirus and got a 'You're Now protected' message fast
  • Score reached 40% in two weeks, 60% six months later; Lookout hit a billion-dollar valuation years later

“but fortunately with the signal and the information we got from the initial survey we were able to get them at 40% in two weeks”

Sean Ellis · 09:00

“it's really the combination of those two things it's set the right expectations and then speed to value”

Sean Ellis · 11:30
#product-market-fit#positioning#onboarding#case-study
Story19:00

Why a 'Commoditized' Website Builder Scored 90%

Sean ran the survey on Webs.com expecting a low score because rivals like Wix and Weebly were easier to use, but it came back around 90% very disappointed, the highest he'd ever seen. Digging in, the reason was investment: users had poured time into building beautiful sites they knew how to edit. It taught him the score is a function of both switching costs and product utility.

  • Webs.com scored ~90% despite being a seemingly commoditized, not-best-in-class product
  • The driver was the 'investment' step from Nir Eyal's Hooked model
  • Users had invested heavily building sites they knew how to change, raising switching costs
  • The PMF score reflects both switching costs and utility, not utility alone
  • Eventbrite scored the second highest he'd seen for the same switching-cost reason

“but it came back with one of the highest scores I'd ever seen and it was like like 90% of the people saying they'd be…”

Sean Ellis · 20:30

“so it's it's a a function of both switching costs and utility of the product”

Sean Ellis · 22:00
#product-market-fit#switching-costs#hooked-model#case-study
Story28:30

The Question Was Invented to Get Honest Answers From Senior Managers

Sean explains the origin of 'how would you feel if you could no longer use this product.' At Xobni, his customers were senior managers who were never satisfied and gave lukewarm answers to standard satisfaction surveys. Flipping the framing to loss aversion pulled more honest responses, and it worked so well at his next companies that it became his standard.

  • Originally he used a normal satisfaction question
  • Xobni's customers were senior management, who are never satisfied and answer lukewarmly
  • Reframing to 'how would you feel if you could no longer use this product' got more honest answers
  • It kept outperforming the typical satisfaction question at Dropbox and beyond

“well if I if I flip it and say how would you feel if you could no longer use this product I'll probably get a…”

Sean Ellis · 29:00

“senior Management's Never Satisfied I'm GNA get always this like super lukewarm thing”

Sean Ellis · 28:30
#surveys#product-market-fit#origin-story
Story54:30

LogMeIn Froze Its Roadmap and 10x'd Activation

At LogMeIn, Sean couldn't spend more than $10k/month profitably on growth, and found 95% of signups never once did a remote-control session. The CEO froze the entire product roadmap and pointed everyone at improving signup-to-usage. In three months activation went from 5% to 50%, the same channels scaled to $1M/month, and 80% of new users came via word of mouth.

  • Growth was capped at $10k/month profitable spend
  • 95% of signups never did a single remote-control session
  • CEO froze the product roadmap; product, engineering, design and marketing all focused on signup-to-usage
  • Signup-to-usage improved 1000% in three months (5% to 50%)
  • The same channels then scaled to $1M/month with a three-month payback; 80% of new users came through word of mouth

“we are putting a complete freeze on the product development road map”

Sean Ellis · 55:30

“80% of new users were coming in through word of mouth so there was this just like major inflection point by just focusing on activation”

Sean Ellis · 56:00
#activation#case-study#channels#focus
Story57:30

The 'Too Good to Be True' Bug That Killed 90% of Downloads

A cheap demand-gen channel had a 90% drop-off at the download step, and ten-plus A/B tests couldn't fix it. Finally someone suggested just asking the 18,000 registered non-downloaders why, via a message that looked like it came from customer support. The answer: as one of the first free SaaS products, people didn't believe it was free. Adding a visible paid trial made the free version credible and produced a 300% improvement.

  • A cheap channel had a 90% drop-off at the download step; 10+ A/B tests failed
  • The breakthrough was simply asking registered non-downloaders why they didn't download
  • Answer: 'this seemed too good to be true' — people didn't believe a free SaaS product was real
  • Offering a choice between a paid trial and the free version (with a big check mark on free) made it credible
  • The next test delivered a 300% improvement in download rate

“oh I just I just this seemed too good to be true I didn't believe this was free”

Sean Ellis · 59:00

“our next test gave us a 300% Improvement in the download rate”

Sean Ellis · 59:30
#conversion#activation#qualitative-research#case-study
Story1:11:00

The VC Question That Made Sean a Better Experimenter

Known as the data-and-experiments growth guy, Sean says most of his best advice is qualitative. A VC at LogMeIn kept pushing him with 'when was the last time you talked to a customer.' Sean initially gave the smartass reply that he cares what customers do, not what they say, but daily customer conversations made his experiments dramatically better and turned him into a qualitative-plus-quantitative operator.

  • Sean's reputation is data-driven, but most of his advice is qualitative and survey-driven
  • A lead VC repeatedly asked him when he'd last talked to a customer
  • His first reaction: 'I don't care what they say I care what they do'
  • Talking to customers daily made his experiments much better
  • The blend of qualitative and quantitative research produces better tests

“when was the last time you talked to a customer”

Sean Ellis · 1:11:30

“at first I was like yeah gave the smartass answer I don't care what they say I care what they do”

Sean Ellis · 1:11:30
#customer-research#experimentation#qualitative
Story1:17:30

How Facebook's MAU-to-DAU Switch Made the Product Addictive

Sean uses Facebook to show that what gets measured gets managed. When Facebook moved its Northstar metric from monthly active users to daily active users, the team suddenly had a strong incentive to bring people back every day. That shift made the product far more engaging, arguably to the point of the addictiveness that later drew public pushback.

  • What gets measured gets managed
  • Facebook switched its Northstar from monthly active users to daily active users
  • Under a DAU goal, the team was incentivized to bring people back every day
  • MAU only credited one visit per month regardless of frequency
  • The change made the product much more addictive and drew later pushback

“once once Facebook was on a daily active user goal the team suddenly had a lot more incentive to think about how how do I…”

Sean Ellis · 1:18:00

“it it had a a really big impact on making that product way more addictive”

Sean Ellis · 1:18:30
#northstar-metric#engagement#facebook
Story1:38:00

Why Sean Refunded Founders Who Weren't Thrilled

Sean's life motto is to focus on reputation and learning over earnings. When two founders seemed unimpressed with his interim work, he offered full refunds, reasoning his reputation was worth $5 million and not worth mortgaging for $20,000. The two VCs who'd made those introductions were the first to give him term sheets when he raised for his own company, at more than double the valuation he'd assigned his reputation.

  • His motto: focus on reputation and learning over earnings
  • He offered full refunds to two founders who weren't thrilled with his work
  • His reasoning: reputation worth $5M isn't worth mortgaging for $20K
  • The VCs behind those intros were first to give him term sheets
  • His pre-money valuation ended up more than double his self-assigned reputation value

“my reputation is worth $5 million why would I possibly you know mortgage that reputation for $20,000”

Sean Ellis · 1:38:30
#reputation#career#life-lessons

Tool· 1

Tool1:30:00

Sean's Favorite AI Hack: 'How Would Sean Ellis Answer This?'

Sean's most-used AI trick is answering the flood of advice requests he gets. He pastes each question into ChatGPT and asks 'how would Sean Ellis answer this,' getting a draft he only needs to tweak. It works because his book and writing are indexed in the model, though he still reviews outputs since some answers differ from how he'd really respond.

  • He gets many advice requests and little time to answer thoughtfully
  • He asks ChatGPT 'how would Sean Ellis answer this' and edits the draft
  • It works because his book (Hacking Growth) and writing are indexed in the model
  • He still reviews outputs because some answers differ from his real views

“almost every question that I get I I go to chat GPT and say how would sea Ellis answer this and gives me an initial…”

Sean Ellis · 1:30:30
#ai#chatgpt#productivity#tools

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway13:30

Moving Retention Is Really an Onboarding Problem

Sean argues you can shift the product-market-fit score dramatically without changing the product itself. Retention feels hard to move, but the lever is usually getting people onboarded to the right user experience rather than the tactical retention tricks teams reach for.

  • The PMF score can move quickly without substantial product changes
  • Moving retention feels hard but the real driver is onboarding to the right experience
  • Tactical retention tweaks are less effective than getting the first experience right

“moving retention is really hard but it's it's usually much more a function of onboarding to the right user experience than it is about the…”

Sean Ellis · 13:30
#retention#onboarding#activation
Takeaway41:30

Ignore Your 'Somewhat Disappointed' Users

Sean's counterintuitive advice is to ignore users who say they'd be only somewhat disappointed, because they're telling you the product is a nice-to-have and are as good as gone. Chasing their feedback risks diluting the product for your must-have users. Superhuman found a smart workaround: move on-the-fence users up by focusing on the same core benefit the must-have users love.

  • Somewhat-disappointed users signal a nice-to-have; treat them as as-good-as-gone
  • Tweaking product for them can dilute value for must-have users, becoming 'good for everyone but not great for anyone'
  • Superhuman's fix: identify the benefit must-have users love, then move fence-sitters who share that benefit up
  • This keeps the core benefit intact while converting on-the-fence users

“just ignore the somewhat disappoint the people who say they'd be somewhat disappointed they're telling you it's a nice to have like they're they're as…”

Sean Ellis · 41:30

“if you start paying attention to what your somewhat disappointed users are telling you and then you start tweaking onboarding and product based on their…”

Sean Ellis · 42:00
#product-market-fit#user-segmentation#superhuman