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Matt Mullenweg (founder and CEO, Automattic)02 March 2025

The creator of WordPress opens up about becoming an internet villain, why he’s taking a stand, and the future of open source

6Frameworks
13Insights

Episode overview

Lenny Rachitsky interviews WordPress co-creator and Automattic CEO Matt Mullenweg about his commitment to open source, WordPress’s growth, and the ecosystem surrounding it. Mullenweg explains his conflict with WP Engine and Silver Lake, including trademark, product, contribution, governance, and plugin-fork disputes, while responding to criticism that his actions destabilized the community. They also discuss AI’s dependence on open-source code, Automattic’s acquisitions and products, distributed work, community building, and the future of WordPress, WooCommerce, Tumblr, and Beeper.

Key ideas

  • Open-source software protects users through freedoms to use, inspect, modify, and redistribute code.
  • Mullenweg argues that Meta’s Llama is not genuinely open source because sufficiently large users may require Meta’s permission.
  • WordPress’s durability comes from pairing a strong product vision with a large contributor, plugin, theme, meetup, and event ecosystem.
  • Mullenweg says the WP Engine dispute centers on confusing trademark use, reduced contributions, altered WordPress functionality, and failed negotiations.
  • Critics see WordPress governance as overly concentrated, while Mullenweg argues that singular accountability enabled difficult long-term bets such as Gutenberg.
  • AI-assisted coding and automated security scanning could improve the creation, maintenance, and auditing of open-source software.
  • Automattic generally acquires strong products and teams to accelerate them, while Tumblr has been a more difficult turnaround and infrastructure migration.
  • Mullenweg views distributed work, globally consistent salaries, and open-source products as enduring parts of Automattic’s model.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 16

  • Matt MullenwegMentionsDiscussed the power of compounding after twenty years building WordPress and Automattic.

    today my guest is Matt mullenweg Matt is the co-creator of Wordpress

  • Christina CacioppoMentionsI am very excited to have Christina Copo CEO and co-founder vanta joining me

    I am very excited to have Christina Copo CEO and co-founder vant joining me

  • Mike LittleCoinedCo-founded WordPress with Matt Mullenweg.

    when I was 19 I co-founded uh open source project called WordPress uh with Mike little

  • Tony SchneiderMentionsEarly CEO of Automattic.

    I hired Tony Schneider to be CE probably four or five months in

  • Ben DavisCoinedCo-originator of the Bay Lights vision and leader of Illuminate.

    a vision between Ben Davis and artist Leo villal who's amazing light artist

  • Leo VillarealCoinedLight artist behind the Bay Lights installation.

    a vision between Ben Davis and artist Leo villal who's amazing light artist

  • Jack DorseyMentionsThis is something that Jack, our CEO, talks about a lot.

    I was just watching a video of Jack dorsy talking about how we're just controlled by algorithms

  • Marc AndreessenMentionsMark Andre had this visual on some podcasts have just imagined a 100,000 drones just coming out of China just at us.

    some people who maybe made their made their first billion or whatever from software um then come back

  • Bill GurleyMentionsI think it might have been Bill Gurley someone tweeted this is the best time in recent memory since 2008 to start a company

    folks like Mark andreon or Bill Gurley you know be huge advocates for open source

  • Marc AndreessenMentionsMark Andre had this visual on some podcasts have just imagined a 100,000 drones just coming out of China just at us.

    folks like Mark andreon or Bill Gurley you know be huge advocates for open source

  • Mark ZuckerbergMentionsit was sort of a random decision for Mark Zuckerberg to move from a uh monthly active to a daily active

    I think Mark Zuckerberg really understands and loves open source too

  • Stuart BrandCoinedAuthor of a forthcoming book about maintenance discussed in the episode.

    Stuart Brand's new book is all about maintenance right which I'm very excited about

  • David KarpCoinedEntrepreneur and product leader associated with Tumblr's early innovation.

    they did a lot of I think product Innovation under the leadership of uh David karp

  • Marissa MayerMentionsYahoo CEO when the company acquired Tumblr.

    Mera Meer who was um or mayor who was one of like the big early people at Google

  • Paul MayneCoinedDay One founder who remained after its acquisition by Automattic.

    Paul May at day one is a great example that they need to sell

  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    Lenny thank you so much and I really appreciate you know the ability to discuss these things in a longer form

Resources · 41

  • Silver LakeMentionscompany

    there's a company called WP engine by 2018 they got bought out by a private Equity Firm called Silver Lake

  • WP EngineMentionscompany · Jason Cohen

    there's a company called WP engine by 2018 they got bought out by a private Equity Firm called Silver Lake

  • LlamaMentionssoftware · Meta

    products like llama are what he calls fake open source

  • Lenny's NewsletterCoinednewsletter · Lenny Rachitsky

    if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter

  • WarrantMentionssoftware · Warrant

    work OS also recently acquired warrant the fine grain authorization service

  • VantaMentionssoftware · Christina Cacioppo

    vanta is a longtime sponsor of the show

  • WordPressCoinedsoftware · Matt Mullenweg

    when I was 19 I co-founded uh open source project called WordPress uh with Mike little

  • AkismetCoinedsoftware · Automattic

    a kisman anti-spam which is our sort of machine learning AI I guess you call it AI now

  • WordPress.comCoinedwebsite · Automattic

    the idea was to create um essentially like complement the core WordPress software with some Commercial Services

  • JetpackCoinedsoftware · Automattic

    our jetpack which is like iCloud for WordPress you know does the backups in the real time sync

  • AutomatticCoinedcompany · Matt Mullenweg

    I left and started a company called automatic

  • SimplenoteMentionssoftware

    so like beeper uh day one simple note pocketcast

  • WooCommerceMentionssoftware

    woocommerce which is open source Shopify which is now over half our revenue

  • Pocket CastsMentionssoftware

    so like beeper uh day one simple note pocketcast

  • WordPress.comMentionswebsite · Automattic

    automatic does a lot of products this wordpress.com woocommerce

  • Day OneMentionssoftware · Paul Mayne

    so like beeper uh day one simple note pocketcast

  • BeeperMentionssoftware

    so like beeper uh day one simple note pocketcast

  • OpenverseMentionswebsite · Creative Commons

    this cool thing called openverse we took over from Creative Commons

  • TumblrMentionscompany · David Karp

    you guys own Tumblr you bought Tumblr which I don't think a lot of people necessarily know

  • Bay LightsCoinedother · Leo Villareal and Ben Davis

    a vision between Ben Davis and artist Leo villal who's amazing light artist

  • Bay Lights 360Mentionsother · Illuminate and Leo Villareal

    we just completed a fund raise and are reinstalling the baylights they're calling it baylights 360

  • IlluminateMentionsbook · Ben Davis

    that turned into a nonprofit called illuminate which I'm on the board of run by Ben Davis

  • GNU General Public LicenseUsesother · Free Software Foundation

    the WordPress is under license called the GPL which has Four Freedoms

  • MIT LicenseMentionsother · Massachusetts Institute of Technology

    as opposed to the MIT license or some of the others that aren't so

  • b2/cafelogMentionssoftware · Michel Valdrighi

    WordPress was actually a fork of uh abandoned open source project called B2

  • LlamaMentionssoftware · Meta

    if you're above a certain threshold of monthly active users I forget what it is like it's big

  • WordPressUsessoftware · Matt Mullenweg

    code I wrote is now executing you know millions of times per second in millions of servers around the world

  • WordCamp USMentionsevent · WordPress community

    at Work Camp Us in September I was like okay

  • LoomRecommendssoftware · Loom

    try a loom for free today at loom.com Lenny

  • GutenbergCoinedsoftware · WordPress contributors

    when we introduced something like Gutenberg you know people hated it

  • ClassicPressMentionssoftware · ClassicPress community

    there was when we introduced Gutenberg it's one called classic press where people actually forked the software

  • GutenbergMentionssoftware · WordPress contributors

    all like the real-time co-editing that like Google Docs and otion has is coming out to this open source thing

  • Advanced Custom FieldsMentionssoftware

    the way you guys forked Advanced custom Fields

  • Secure Custom FieldsCoinedsoftware · WordPress contributors

    there now is a separate Fork under separate listing of secure custom fields

  • WordCamp AsiaRecommendsevent · WordPress community

    if people have more questions they can come to Work Camp Asia

  • TumblrMentionscompany · David Karp

    Tumblr had like these multiple post types you could post like a chat an image

  • BeeperRecommendssoftware

    I encourage people to um you check out the beta now go to b.com beta

  • Kumbh MelaMentionsevent

    I'm actually going to the mahaa the big you know 300 million person gathering at the ganji river

  • Lenny's PodcastRecommendspodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    I recommend your podcast and newsletter to a lot of my colleagues

  • AutomatticRecommendscompany · Matt Mullenweg

    if you're someone who loves this kind of stuff I think that's a big opportunity at automatic

  • Lenny's NewsletterRecommendsnewsletter · Lenny Rachitsky

    I recommend your podcast and newsletter to a lot of my colleagues

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 2

Myth Buster23:30

Why Matt Mullenweg Calls Meta's Llama 'Fake Open Source'

Mullenweg argues Llama isn't truly open source because Meta's license requires companies above a large monthly-active-user threshold to obtain permission. That violates the first freedom — using software for any purpose without asking. He praises Meta's genuine open source contributions like React but is confused why they insist on the 'open source' label, guessing it may be tied to European AI regulation.

  • Llama's license requires a separate license from Meta above a ~750 million MAU threshold
  • Requiring permission at any point breaks the freedom to use software for any purpose
  • Definitional ambiguity: WordPress products reach billions of visitors but not registered users
  • Meta is genuinely a major open source contributor (React, PHP engine improvements)
  • Mullenweg's guess: the 'open source' label may be driven by European regulation on AI models

that does not give you the freedom to use a software for any purpose right if at some point you have to ask for permission

Matt Mullenweg · 24:00

they're calling it open source because there's some European regulation about open source versus proprietary AI models

Matt Mullenweg · 25:00
#open source#llama#meta#ai#licensing
Myth Buster41:30

How WP Engine 'Broke the Undo Feature' to Save Money

Mullenweg explains that WP Engine turned off one of his favorite WordPress features — post and page revisions — to save on database storage. Because revisions save every change forever like Wikipedia, disabling them removes the safety net of being able to undo a mistake. He frames it as offering a 'bastardized, hacked up version' of WordPress that dilutes the brand while users think it's official.

  • WordPress saves every change to every post or page forever, like Wikipedia's edit history
  • Revisions cost only megabytes on modern databases — a trivial amount of storage
  • WP Engine disabled revisions to save money, breaking the ability to undo mistakes
  • Mullenweg calls their offering a 'bastardized hacked up version' that dilutes the WordPress brand

to save money they were actually turning off features like revisions

Matt Mullenweg · 41:30

they broke the undo feature in WordPress to essentially save money

Matt Mullenweg · 42:00
#wp engine#wordpress#product#user safety

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take27:30

Why Mullenweg Thinks Proprietary Software's Value Approaches Zero

Mullenweg makes the case that open source code is the safest thing to train AI on because its license explicitly permits it. He then argues that over a 50-100 year horizon the utility of proprietary software approaches zero, and that humanity's foundational systems — like the OS running Mars rockets — will be built on open source kernels, not proprietary ones.

  • Open source is among the safest data to train AI on because the license explicitly allows it
  • Over 50-100 years, Mullenweg believes proprietary software's utility approaches zero
  • Foundational future systems (e.g. rocket operating systems) will run on open kernels like Linux or BSD
  • Contributing to open source means being part of the 'fabric of humanity's foundation'

I do believe that the utility for prioritary software eventually approaches zero

Matt Mullenweg · 27:30

when we're sending people to Mars the operating system of the Rockets and the devices and everything like that is not going to be built…

Matt Mullenweg · 28:00
#open source#ai training#proprietary software#future
Hot Take45:30

Why Being Open Source Sometimes Means Fighting Bullies

Mullenweg pushes back on the narrative that he was nice for 20 years and then turned mean. He argues that protecting open source ideals sometimes requires standing up to bullies, or others will take advantage in ways that can destroy everything you've built. He notes this is at least the fourth time the internet has cast him as the villain, and the earlier ones are already forgotten.

  • Rejects the 'Matt was nice for 20 years then got mean' framing
  • Protecting open source ideals sometimes requires fighting bullies
  • Failing to fight lets people take advantage in ways that can destroy what you've created
  • This is roughly the fourth time the internet has decided he's the villain; earlier ones are forgotten

if you're really open in open source sometimes you have to stand up the bullies and you have to fight to protect your open source…

Matt Mullenweg · 46:00
#open source#leadership#conflict#reputation
Hot Take1:01:30

Is Great Software Ever Built by Committee?

Responding to calls to install a board above him to govern WordPress.org, Mullenweg argues that no open source project with that structure has been as successful as WordPress. He contends great software reflects a leader's vision rather than a committee, citing Gutenberg — a decade-long bet everyone would have voted against — as the reason WordPress stayed relevant across technological shifts.

  • No open source project governed by a board-over-leader structure has matched WordPress's success
  • Great software more often reflects a leader's vision than a committee vote
  • Gutenberg was a 10-year bet a majority would have voted against, driven by a few core people
  • Surviving multiple generational tech shifts required unpopular top-down decisions
  • Mullenweg likens his role to a mayor accountable to contributors, not a pure CEO

is great software ever created by committee or does it more often reflect um a vision of a leader

Matt Mullenweg · 1:02:30
#founder mode#governance#leadership#wordpress

Explainer· 2

Explainer20:00

The Four Freedoms Behind Open Source, Explained

Mullenweg explains why he considers open source the most important idea of his generation: as software controls more of our lives, freedoms attached to that software determine whether people are truly free. He lays out the GPL's four freedoms and its 'viral' clause that forces anyone redistributing changes to pass the same freedoms along.

  • As more of life is controlled by software, freedoms attached to it determine real freedom
  • GPL freedom 1: use the software for any purpose, whether the author agrees with you or not
  • GPL freedom 2: see how the software works and audit every line of code
  • GPL freedoms 3 and 4: change the software and redistribute your changes
  • The GPL is 'viral' — if you share changes, you must grant recipients the same freedoms, unlike MIT-style licenses

the freedom to use the software for any purpose so you can use it for anything whether I agree with you or not the terms…

Matt Mullenweg · 20:30
#open source#gpl#software freedom#licensing
Explainer37:30

What Makes a 'True Platform' — and Why Building on Closed Ones Is Risky

Mullenweg defines a true platform as one where the third-party ecosystem makes more money than the core does — WordPress's 60,000 plugins and themes being its huge moat. He contrasts this with closed platforms like Facebook and Shopify, where successful builders get the 'rug pulled' when the platform decides it wants their money or growth, and argues open source is the only guarantee against that.

  • A true platform is one where the ecosystem makes more money than the core does
  • WordPress's 60,000 plugins and themes are a mode no competitor has replicated
  • On closed platforms, successful apps get API access changed or removed once they get too big
  • Only building on open source guarantees you can't have the rug pulled — code can be forked

a true platform it's when your ecosystem makes more money than the core does

Matt Mullenweg · 37:30

oh that's a mighty nice app you have there we I'd love to offer you some warrants where we own a bunch of your company

Matt Mullenweg · 38:00
#platforms#open source#ecosystem#moat

Story· 4

Story12:30

How Matt Mullenweg Helped Fund SF's Bay Lights Art Project

Mullenweg recounts how a patio conversation about programmable bridge lights turned into the Bay Lights, an 18,000-LED art piece on the Bay Bridge. He made the first angel donation to get it started and later mortgaged his condo to close the final fundraising gap. The original ran for 10 years; a new 'Bay Lights 360' version is being reinstalled to be visible from both sides.

  • The Bay Lights put roughly 18,000 LEDs on the cables of the Bay Bridge as an algorithmic light art piece
  • Mullenweg gave the first ~$100-150k to get the project started before it was even an entity
  • He mortgaged his condo to donate the final ~$1-1.5M when the fundraise couldn't close
  • New 'Bay Lights 360' version will be visible from Oakland and Treasure Island, not just San Francisco
  • The effort spun into a nonprofit, Illuminate, doing free public art around the city

I actually mortgaged my condo and uh donated the last million million and a half to uh to finish out that project

Matt Mullenweg · 12:30
#san francisco#philanthropy#public art#angel investing
Story39:30

The Full Story Behind the WP Engine Feud

Mullenweg lays out the origin of the WordPress-WP Engine dispute: after private equity firm Silver Lake bought WP Engine in 2019, the company stopped contributing to core and used the WordPress trademark in ways surveys showed confused 20-40% of users into thinking it was official. He believes their refusal to negotiate a trademark license was tied to a failed 2024 attempt to sell the company.

  • Silver Lake, a private equity firm, bought WP Engine in 2019
  • WP Engine stopped contributing to core and used the trademark in confusing ways
  • Surveys found 20-40% of people thought WP Engine was officially associated with WordPress
  • Mullenweg believes WP Engine stalled negotiations because it had tried and failed to sell the company

I think part of what was going on is last year they tried to sell the company so private Equity usually holds things for like…

Matt Mullenweg · 43:00
#wp engine#private equity#trademark#wordpress
Story1:12:00

The Sentiment Analysis That Showed Twitter Amplifies Outrage

Mullenweg's team ran a sentiment analysis across social networks and found the 'devil horn' negative fraction was about 8% on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, but 52% on Twitter. He argues algorithms tuned for outrage spread misinformation far faster than corrections, citing how an untrue claim got 700,000 views while its correction got 20,000.

  • Negative sentiment was ~8% on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, but 52% on Twitter
  • Algorithms tuned to promote controversy can distort perception of an issue
  • Misinformation spreads far faster than corrections — one false claim got 700k views vs 20k for the fix
  • Mainstream media and podcast coverage of the dispute was more nuanced and balanced than Twitter

on Twitter it was 52% you're like whoa what's going on there and so there's something in that algorithm

Matt Mullenweg · 1:12:30

a lie gets around the world seven times before truth has time to you know get out of bed

Matt Mullenweg · 1:13:00
#social media#algorithms#misinformation#twitter
Story1:19:30

Buying Tumblr: 'Free Like a Puppy, Not Free Like Beer'

Mullenweg tells the story of Automattic acquiring Tumblr from Verizon in 2019 for around $3 million after the platform passed through Yahoo and languished. He stresses the low price was misleading because Automattic took on all liabilities, an FTC investigation, lawsuits, a 185-person team, and heavy cash burn. Despite that, he valued Tumblr's young, heavily LGBTQ+ user base and unique anonymous social space.

  • Automattic bought Tumblr from Verizon in 2019 for roughly $3 million
  • The low price came with all liabilities: an FTC investigation, lawsuits, a 185-person team, and heavy burn
  • Over half of Tumblr's user base was under 25, with an estimated 25-30% LGBTQ+
  • Verizon chose Automattic over higher bidders (including a porn company) to be a good steward
  • Automattic is migrating Tumblr's back end to WordPress in one of the largest data migrations ever

it was free like a puppy not free like a like beer

Matt Mullenweg · 1:22:00

over half of that user base was under the age of 25

Matt Mullenweg · 1:21:00
#tumblr#acquisitions#automattic#social networks

Q&A· 1

Q&A52:00

What It's Like to Go From Beloved Hero to 'Internet Villain'

Asked how he copes with sudden public dislike, Mullenweg reframes it: the share of people who think he's terrible went from about 1% to 4-5%, still a minority. He explains that negative feelings register roughly seven times stronger than positive ones, and that the best core contributors stay productive precisely because they don't spend their time arguing on Twitter and Reddit.

  • Mullenweg estimates the 'thinks I'm terrible' share rose from ~1% to ~4-5% — still a minority
  • Negative sentiment is felt about seven times more strongly than positive sentiment
  • Like restaurant reviews, angry people are far more likely to post than happy ones
  • 98% of core developers stayed; the best ones avoid arguing on Twitter and Reddit

previously like 1% of you know the world thought I was terrible and now I feel like it's up to like four or 5%

Matt Mullenweg · 52:30

something negative you feel seven times more than something positive

Matt Mullenweg · 52:30
#reputation#mental health#social media#criticism

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway35:30

Don't Just Build a Product, Build a Movement

Asked what it takes to build a successful online community, Mullenweg credits systems thinking from economics and collaboration from jazz. His core lesson: give people a philosophy and worldview to believe in, not just software. He points to WordPress touches like the 'Code is Poetry' tagline and naming every release after a jazz musician as ways to bring art and soul into the project.

  • Give people something to believe in — a philosophy and worldview — beyond a paycheck or the software's utility
  • WordPress's 'Code is Poetry' tagline framed coding as more than just writing code
  • Every WordPress release (60+) is named after a jazz musician to add art and fun
  • Community means meetups, forums, town halls, office hours, and Q&As around the software

don't just build a product build a movement

Matt Mullenweg · 35:30
#community building#movement#wordpress#culture