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Matt Mullenweg (founder and CEO, Automattic)02 March 2025

The creator of WordPress opens up about becoming an internet villain, why he’s taking a stand, and the future of open source

6Frameworks
13Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Entrepreneurship3 steps

Acquirer of First Resort: Win Deals by Being the Better Steward

Become the buyer founders choose by building a track record of stewardship, not the highest bid.

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Marketing4 steps

Build a Movement, Not a Product

Give people a philosophy to believe in and rituals to gather around, not just working software.

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Leadership3 steps

Collaborate by Default, Fight Only for Your Ideals

Resolve conflict quietly by default; escalate to open war rarely, only when bad faith threatens what you built.

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Innovation4 steps

The Four Freedoms Test for Real Open Source

Judge whether software is truly open source by four inviolable user freedoms, not marketing claims.

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Strategy3 steps

The Long-Bet Vision Call: Ship What the Committee Would Veto

Great software follows a leader's vision, not a vote — accept years of hate for a decade-long payoff.

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Strategy3 steps

The True Platform Test (and the Rug-Pull Trap)

A real platform is one where the ecosystem earns more than the core — and only open source protects you on it.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 2

Myth Buster23:30

Why Matt Mullenweg Calls Meta's Llama 'Fake Open Source'

Mullenweg argues Llama isn't truly open source because Meta's license requires companies above a large monthly-active-user threshold to obtain permission. That violates the first freedom — using software for any purpose without asking. He praises Meta's genuine open source contributions like React but is confused why they insist on the 'open source' label, guessing it may be tied to European AI regulation.

  • Llama's license requires a separate license from Meta above a ~750 million MAU threshold
  • Requiring permission at any point breaks the freedom to use software for any purpose
  • Definitional ambiguity: WordPress products reach billions of visitors but not registered users
  • Meta is genuinely a major open source contributor (React, PHP engine improvements)
  • Mullenweg's guess: the 'open source' label may be driven by European regulation on AI models

“that does not give you the freedom to use a software for any purpose right if at some point you have to ask for permission”

Matt Mullenweg · 24:00

“they're calling it open source because there's some European regulation about open source versus proprietary AI models”

Matt Mullenweg · 25:00
#open source#llama#meta#ai#licensing
Myth Buster41:30

How WP Engine 'Broke the Undo Feature' to Save Money

Mullenweg explains that WP Engine turned off one of his favorite WordPress features — post and page revisions — to save on database storage. Because revisions save every change forever like Wikipedia, disabling them removes the safety net of being able to undo a mistake. He frames it as offering a 'bastardized, hacked up version' of WordPress that dilutes the brand while users think it's official.

  • WordPress saves every change to every post or page forever, like Wikipedia's edit history
  • Revisions cost only megabytes on modern databases — a trivial amount of storage
  • WP Engine disabled revisions to save money, breaking the ability to undo mistakes
  • Mullenweg calls their offering a 'bastardized hacked up version' that dilutes the WordPress brand

“to save money they were actually turning off features like revisions”

Matt Mullenweg · 41:30

“they broke the undo feature in WordPress to essentially save money”

Matt Mullenweg · 42:00
#wp engine#wordpress#product#user safety

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take27:30

Why Mullenweg Thinks Proprietary Software's Value Approaches Zero

Mullenweg makes the case that open source code is the safest thing to train AI on because its license explicitly permits it. He then argues that over a 50-100 year horizon the utility of proprietary software approaches zero, and that humanity's foundational systems — like the OS running Mars rockets — will be built on open source kernels, not proprietary ones.

  • Open source is among the safest data to train AI on because the license explicitly allows it
  • Over 50-100 years, Mullenweg believes proprietary software's utility approaches zero
  • Foundational future systems (e.g. rocket operating systems) will run on open kernels like Linux or BSD
  • Contributing to open source means being part of the 'fabric of humanity's foundation'

“I do believe that the utility for prioritary software eventually approaches zero”

Matt Mullenweg · 27:30

“when we're sending people to Mars the operating system of the Rockets and the devices and everything like that is not going to be built…”

Matt Mullenweg · 28:00
#open source#ai training#proprietary software#future
Hot Take45:30

Why Being Open Source Sometimes Means Fighting Bullies

Mullenweg pushes back on the narrative that he was nice for 20 years and then turned mean. He argues that protecting open source ideals sometimes requires standing up to bullies, or others will take advantage in ways that can destroy everything you've built. He notes this is at least the fourth time the internet has cast him as the villain, and the earlier ones are already forgotten.

  • Rejects the 'Matt was nice for 20 years then got mean' framing
  • Protecting open source ideals sometimes requires fighting bullies
  • Failing to fight lets people take advantage in ways that can destroy what you've created
  • This is roughly the fourth time the internet has decided he's the villain; earlier ones are forgotten

“if you're really open in open source sometimes you have to stand up the bullies and you have to fight to protect your open source…”

Matt Mullenweg · 46:00
#open source#leadership#conflict#reputation
Hot Take1:01:30

Is Great Software Ever Built by Committee?

Responding to calls to install a board above him to govern WordPress.org, Mullenweg argues that no open source project with that structure has been as successful as WordPress. He contends great software reflects a leader's vision rather than a committee, citing Gutenberg — a decade-long bet everyone would have voted against — as the reason WordPress stayed relevant across technological shifts.

  • No open source project governed by a board-over-leader structure has matched WordPress's success
  • Great software more often reflects a leader's vision than a committee vote
  • Gutenberg was a 10-year bet a majority would have voted against, driven by a few core people
  • Surviving multiple generational tech shifts required unpopular top-down decisions
  • Mullenweg likens his role to a mayor accountable to contributors, not a pure CEO

“is great software ever created by committee or does it more often reflect um a vision of a leader”

Matt Mullenweg · 1:02:30
#founder mode#governance#leadership#wordpress

Explainer· 2

Explainer20:00

The Four Freedoms Behind Open Source, Explained

Mullenweg explains why he considers open source the most important idea of his generation: as software controls more of our lives, freedoms attached to that software determine whether people are truly free. He lays out the GPL's four freedoms and its 'viral' clause that forces anyone redistributing changes to pass the same freedoms along.

  • As more of life is controlled by software, freedoms attached to it determine real freedom
  • GPL freedom 1: use the software for any purpose, whether the author agrees with you or not
  • GPL freedom 2: see how the software works and audit every line of code
  • GPL freedoms 3 and 4: change the software and redistribute your changes
  • The GPL is 'viral' — if you share changes, you must grant recipients the same freedoms, unlike MIT-style licenses

“the freedom to use the software for any purpose so you can use it for anything whether I agree with you or not the terms…”

Matt Mullenweg · 20:30
#open source#gpl#software freedom#licensing
Explainer37:30

What Makes a 'True Platform' — and Why Building on Closed Ones Is Risky

Mullenweg defines a true platform as one where the third-party ecosystem makes more money than the core does — WordPress's 60,000 plugins and themes being its huge moat. He contrasts this with closed platforms like Facebook and Shopify, where successful builders get the 'rug pulled' when the platform decides it wants their money or growth, and argues open source is the only guarantee against that.

  • A true platform is one where the ecosystem makes more money than the core does
  • WordPress's 60,000 plugins and themes are a mode no competitor has replicated
  • On closed platforms, successful apps get API access changed or removed once they get too big
  • Only building on open source guarantees you can't have the rug pulled — code can be forked

“a true platform it's when your ecosystem makes more money than the core does”

Matt Mullenweg · 37:30

“oh that's a mighty nice app you have there we I'd love to offer you some warrants where we own a bunch of your company”

Matt Mullenweg · 38:00
#platforms#open source#ecosystem#moat

Story· 4

Story12:30

How Matt Mullenweg Helped Fund SF's Bay Lights Art Project

Mullenweg recounts how a patio conversation about programmable bridge lights turned into the Bay Lights, an 18,000-LED art piece on the Bay Bridge. He made the first angel donation to get it started and later mortgaged his condo to close the final fundraising gap. The original ran for 10 years; a new 'Bay Lights 360' version is being reinstalled to be visible from both sides.

  • The Bay Lights put roughly 18,000 LEDs on the cables of the Bay Bridge as an algorithmic light art piece
  • Mullenweg gave the first ~$100-150k to get the project started before it was even an entity
  • He mortgaged his condo to donate the final ~$1-1.5M when the fundraise couldn't close
  • New 'Bay Lights 360' version will be visible from Oakland and Treasure Island, not just San Francisco
  • The effort spun into a nonprofit, Illuminate, doing free public art around the city

“I actually mortgaged my condo and uh donated the last million million and a half to uh to finish out that project”

Matt Mullenweg · 12:30
#san francisco#philanthropy#public art#angel investing
Story39:30

The Full Story Behind the WP Engine Feud

Mullenweg lays out the origin of the WordPress-WP Engine dispute: after private equity firm Silver Lake bought WP Engine in 2019, the company stopped contributing to core and used the WordPress trademark in ways surveys showed confused 20-40% of users into thinking it was official. He believes their refusal to negotiate a trademark license was tied to a failed 2024 attempt to sell the company.

  • Silver Lake, a private equity firm, bought WP Engine in 2019
  • WP Engine stopped contributing to core and used the trademark in confusing ways
  • Surveys found 20-40% of people thought WP Engine was officially associated with WordPress
  • Mullenweg believes WP Engine stalled negotiations because it had tried and failed to sell the company

“I think part of what was going on is last year they tried to sell the company so private Equity usually holds things for like…”

Matt Mullenweg · 43:00
#wp engine#private equity#trademark#wordpress
Story1:12:00

The Sentiment Analysis That Showed Twitter Amplifies Outrage

Mullenweg's team ran a sentiment analysis across social networks and found the 'devil horn' negative fraction was about 8% on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, but 52% on Twitter. He argues algorithms tuned for outrage spread misinformation far faster than corrections, citing how an untrue claim got 700,000 views while its correction got 20,000.

  • Negative sentiment was ~8% on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, but 52% on Twitter
  • Algorithms tuned to promote controversy can distort perception of an issue
  • Misinformation spreads far faster than corrections — one false claim got 700k views vs 20k for the fix
  • Mainstream media and podcast coverage of the dispute was more nuanced and balanced than Twitter

“on Twitter it was 52% you're like whoa what's going on there and so there's something in that algorithm”

Matt Mullenweg · 1:12:30

“a lie gets around the world seven times before truth has time to you know get out of bed”

Matt Mullenweg · 1:13:00
#social media#algorithms#misinformation#twitter
Story1:19:30

Buying Tumblr: 'Free Like a Puppy, Not Free Like Beer'

Mullenweg tells the story of Automattic acquiring Tumblr from Verizon in 2019 for around $3 million after the platform passed through Yahoo and languished. He stresses the low price was misleading because Automattic took on all liabilities, an FTC investigation, lawsuits, a 185-person team, and heavy cash burn. Despite that, he valued Tumblr's young, heavily LGBTQ+ user base and unique anonymous social space.

  • Automattic bought Tumblr from Verizon in 2019 for roughly $3 million
  • The low price came with all liabilities: an FTC investigation, lawsuits, a 185-person team, and heavy burn
  • Over half of Tumblr's user base was under 25, with an estimated 25-30% LGBTQ+
  • Verizon chose Automattic over higher bidders (including a porn company) to be a good steward
  • Automattic is migrating Tumblr's back end to WordPress in one of the largest data migrations ever

“it was free like a puppy not free like a like beer”

Matt Mullenweg · 1:22:00

“over half of that user base was under the age of 25”

Matt Mullenweg · 1:21:00
#tumblr#acquisitions#automattic#social networks

Q&A· 1

Q&A52:00

What It's Like to Go From Beloved Hero to 'Internet Villain'

Asked how he copes with sudden public dislike, Mullenweg reframes it: the share of people who think he's terrible went from about 1% to 4-5%, still a minority. He explains that negative feelings register roughly seven times stronger than positive ones, and that the best core contributors stay productive precisely because they don't spend their time arguing on Twitter and Reddit.

  • Mullenweg estimates the 'thinks I'm terrible' share rose from ~1% to ~4-5% — still a minority
  • Negative sentiment is felt about seven times more strongly than positive sentiment
  • Like restaurant reviews, angry people are far more likely to post than happy ones
  • 98% of core developers stayed; the best ones avoid arguing on Twitter and Reddit

“previously like 1% of you know the world thought I was terrible and now I feel like it's up to like four or 5%”

Matt Mullenweg · 52:30

“something negative you feel seven times more than something positive”

Matt Mullenweg · 52:30
#reputation#mental health#social media#criticism

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway35:30

Don't Just Build a Product, Build a Movement

Asked what it takes to build a successful online community, Mullenweg credits systems thinking from economics and collaboration from jazz. His core lesson: give people a philosophy and worldview to believe in, not just software. He points to WordPress touches like the 'Code is Poetry' tagline and naming every release after a jazz musician as ways to bring art and soul into the project.

  • Give people something to believe in — a philosophy and worldview — beyond a paycheck or the software's utility
  • WordPress's 'Code is Poetry' tagline framed coding as more than just writing code
  • Every WordPress release (60+) is named after a jazz musician to add art and fun
  • Community means meetups, forums, town halls, office hours, and Q&As around the software

“don't just build a product build a movement”

Matt Mullenweg · 35:30
#community building#movement#wordpress#culture