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Kevin Aluwi (Gojek)26 March 2023

Taxi mafias, cash vaults, and 100% MoM growth: The story behind Southeast Asia’s biggest startup

7Frameworks
15Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take10:00

Why Super Apps Are Surprisingly Overrated

Kevin pushes back on the super-app hype popular in VC and consultant circles, arguing the promised benefits (lower CAC, higher attach rates, easy cross-sell) often fail to pan out. Gojek's own mobile top-up product was relevant to 95%+ of customers and sat on the home page, yet only 30-40% of customers knew it existed. His conclusion: you need a unifying concept for users to make sense of your services, otherwise each new service requires fresh advertising and customer education that raises acquisition costs.

  • Super-app benefits (lower CAC, higher attach, cross-sell) sound great on strategy decks but often don't materialize
  • Gojek's mobile top-up was relevant to 95%+ of customers yet only 30-40% knew it existed
  • Users need a unifying concept to make sense of multiple services in one app
  • Gojek's unifying concept was the driver, which made ride-hailing to delivery cross-sell intuitive
  • Services without that unifying factor require extra advertising and education that raises CAC

I'm gonna come off a little strong on this but I I am kind of annoyed at how much it's being mentioned these days it's…

Kevin Aluwi · 10:00

there kind of needs to be a unifying concept across all of your services within the app for your users to be able to think…

Kevin Aluwi · 12:30
#product-strategy#super-apps#gojek#cac
Hot Take33:30

Moats Aren't Durable, So Do Hard Things Instead

Kevin dislikes the concept of moats thrown around by strategy folks, arguing no moat is durable over time and, with enough time, all moats can be crossed. The under-discussed advantage is simply being able to do hard things: because hard things are hard, doing them (as long as they create customer value) makes it harder for competitors to win your customers. Gojek's private-security operation is his example of doing something very difficult that paid off.

  • Kevin dislikes the concept of moats used by strategy folks
  • No moat is durable; with enough time all moats can be crossed
  • The underrated advantage is the ability to do hard things
  • Doing hard things that create customer value makes it harder for competitors to win those customers
  • The private-security operation is an example of doing something very difficult

I don't believe that any modes are durable over time eventually with enough time all modes can be crossed

Kevin Aluwi · 34:00

simply doing things that are hard as long as they prove they create value to your customers um actually is a position that makes it…

Kevin Aluwi · 34:30
#strategy#moats#gojek#competition

Story· 9

Story00:00

Hiring Private Security to Protect Drivers From Taxi Mafias

In Gojek's early days, motorcycle-taxi mafias who controlled areas through violence physically assaulted Gojek drivers who picked up orders in their turf, throwing bricks and brandishing knives and machetes. Rather than treat drivers as third-party contractors left to fend for themselves, Gojek hired private security companies to extract drivers from these situations. They ran on-call patrols in hotspots that could reach a driver within five to ten minutes, and the effort signalled commitment that built lasting loyalty in the driver community.

  • Motorcycle-taxi mafias controlled areas through violence and assaulted Gojek drivers
  • Attacks ranged from bricks thrown to knives and machetes brandished at drivers
  • Gojek hired private security firms rather than leave contractors to sort it out themselves
  • On-call patrols in hotspots could reach a driver in five to ten minutes
  • The visible commitment to driver safety built Goodwill and loyalty as richer competitors arrived

the most common form of that resistance in the early days was actually by motorcycle taxi mafias so you would have like these areas that…

Kevin Aluwi · 00:00

instead we uh we actually hired private security so we actually work with private security companies to help our drivers in those situations

Kevin Aluwi · 00:30
#operations#drivers#gojek#safety
Story13:00

The Massage Service That Confused Customers

When Gojek launched an on-demand massage service, customers asked whether the driver would come into their house to give the massage. The confusion illustrated Kevin's point about unifying concepts: because customers mentally filed Gojek under 'driver-related services,' a service that didn't fit that frame broke down. It also created design constraints, forcing super apps into giant grids of loosely related services.

  • Customers literally asked if the Gojek driver would come inside and give them the massage
  • The confusion stemmed from customers framing Gojek entirely as driver-related services
  • Services outside a customer's mental frame break down and need re-selling
  • Displaying many unrelated services forces super apps into a giant grid, limiting design choices

a a question that many of our customers asked was that oh is the driver gonna come into my house and give me a massage…

Kevin Aluwi · 13:30
#product-strategy#super-apps#ux#gojek
Story17:30

Competing With a Rival That Had 100x More Capital

Gojek was by far the underfunded player when it launched. In the first six months after launch it had raised about two million dollars while its regional competitor had already raised 250 million, more than a hundred times more capital. Kevin credits the brand it built with drivers, merchants and consumers for helping the company survive and maintain leadership despite the funding gap.

  • Six months after launch Gojek had raised about $2 million
  • Its regional competitor had already raised $250 million, over 100x more capital
  • Competitors could offer more discounts and driver incentives
  • A strong brand across drivers, merchants and consumers helped Gojek survive and lead

for the first six months after launching our app you know we had only raised about two million dollars and our regional competitor had already…

Kevin Aluwi · 17:30
#fundraising#competition#brand#gojek
Story23:30

How Branded Jackets and Helmets Built the Gojek Brand

Putting the Gojek logo on driver jackets and helmets was, in Kevin's telling, one of the most important brand decisions the company made. Beyond simple recall from being all over city streets, the branding worked because people stuck in traffic saw drivers whizzing past carrying passengers, packages and food. That physical reminder connected the logo directly to the service's value proposition, an opportunity Kevin says is rare and often ignored in favour of lazy billboard branding.

  • Branded jackets and helmets gave recall by being all over city streets
  • More powerfully, people stuck in traffic saw drivers whizzing past with passengers, packages and food
  • That connected the logo directly to the service's value proposition, not just visual recall
  • These value-reinforcing branding opportunities are rare, which is why lazy billboard branding dominates
  • Branding a car ride-hailing service the same way wouldn't work since drivers are hidden inside

when people would be seeing uh these uh drivers with their jackets and helmets they would be seeing passengers on the back seat as they…

Kevin Aluwi · 24:30

the laziest uh uh kind of branding tends to to to be the most popular um you know just put your name and your you…

Kevin Aluwi · 25:30
#brand#marketing#gojek#drivers
Story27:30

Building Cash Vault Booths to Pay Drivers

Before digital payments were common in Indonesia, Gojek had to solve how to pay drivers their earnings. In the early days they built physical cash booths, literally a booth with a vault of cash, where drivers would show their driver ID and balance and collect their money. With tens of thousands of drivers across Indonesia, they effectively built a scrappy mini-ATM network by hand before later integrating with a bank and ATM network.

  • Digital payments barely existed in Indonesia when Gojek started
  • Gojek needed a way for drivers to withdraw their earnings
  • They built physical cash booths with vaults where drivers showed ID and collected cash
  • This served tens of thousands of drivers across Indonesia
  • They later integrated with a bank and ATM network instead

in the early days we actually had cash booths uh so we actually had um physical spaces with like a vault and uh a cash…

Kevin Aluwi · 28:00

it was it was literally like a boost with a vault with cash in it

Kevin Aluwi · 28:30
#operations#payments#gojek#scrappiness
Story29:00

Beating Fraudulent Driver Apps by Copying Their Features

Third-party fraudulent driver apps were stealing driver details and financial information, but they attracted drivers by offering features Gojek didn't allow, like auto-accepting incoming orders. Lacking the scarce engineering and security talent to lock the apps out, Gojek instead copied the top two or three features into its own app. That significantly reduced usage of the third-party apps, a decision Kevin says was born of necessity rather than principle.

  • Fraudulent third-party driver apps stole driver details and financial information
  • They attracted drivers with features Gojek banned, like auto-accepting orders
  • Engineering and security talent to combat them was extremely scarce in Southeast Asia
  • Gojek copied the top two or three features into its own app instead
  • This significantly reduced usage of the third-party apps; the decision was made out of necessity

we just said hey let's take their top two or three features and let's build them into our app and that actually significantly reduced uh…

Kevin Aluwi · 31:30
#security#product-strategy#gojek#operations
Story39:30

Doing Every Job Badly to Learn What Excellence Looks Like

Kevin held many roles at Gojek, from performance marketer writing ad copy to de facto CPO, not just to be scrappy but because experienced talent was scarce in the ecosystem. He argues founders should understand the work well enough to see what excellence looks like; seeing how bad he was at a job helped him understand what good looked like and who to hire to do it orders of magnitude better. The one exception was driving, which he did to build empathy for drivers rather than to judge excellence.

  • Kevin held many roles including amateur performance marketer writing and uploading ads
  • He did it because experienced talent was scarce, not just to be scrappy
  • Seeing how bad he was at a job helped him understand what 'good' looked like
  • That understanding helped him hire people who could do the job far better than himself
  • Driving was the exception, done to build empathy rather than judge excellence

seeing how bad I am at it uh allowed me to understand what good looked like

Kevin Aluwi · 41:00
#leadership#founders#hiring#gojek
Story42:00

The Laundry Detour That Led to Driver Waiting Fees

As one of the first drivers on Gojek's car ride-hailing service, Kevin picked up a passenger who came out with a giant bag, then asked to stop and do her laundry on the way to the mall. He lugged the bag around, took the detour, and earned very little for the extra work. That firsthand experience later informed his support for driver-team requests for waiting fees and multiple stops so drivers would be compensated for extra work.

  • Kevin was one of the first drivers on Gojek's car ride-hailing service
  • A passenger had him detour to do her laundry en route to the mall, with a giant bag
  • He got very little money out of the extra effort
  • The experience informed his support for waiting fees and multiple-stop features
  • The goal was ensuring drivers were compensated for extra work

in the middle of the the drive she's like hey you know um I need to drop off and do my laundry uh on the…

Kevin Aluwi · 42:30
#product#drivers#empathy#gojek
Story52:30

Growing 100% Month-on-Month for 16 to 18 Months

After launching its app in 2015, Gojek grew more than 100% month on month for the first 16 to 18 months, more than doubling every month for over a year. Sequoia, an investor at the time, told them it was the craziest growth story they had ever heard of in the world. Kevin attributes it less to brilliance than to a region full of obviously broken things ripe for better technology and a young population eager to try new things.

  • Gojek grew more than 100% month on month for the first 16 to 18 months after its 2015 launch
  • That meant more than doubling every month for over a year
  • Investor Sequoia called it the craziest growth story they had ever heard of in the world
  • Kevin credits broken systems ripe for better tech plus a young population eager to try new things
  • Solutions with great product-market fit see insane adoption curves in developing regions

in 2015 for example you know when we launch our app you know we grew more than a hundred percent month on month for the…

Kevin Aluwi · 52:30

Sequoia is one of our investors at the time told us that this was the craziest the craziest growth story that they've ever heard of…

Kevin Aluwi · 53:00
#growth#product-market-fit#gojek#indonesia

Tool· 1

Tool57:30

Kevin Aluwi's Book and Product Recommendations

In the lightning round, Kevin recommends two books: 'What You Do Is Who You Are' by Ben Horowitz for building interesting cultures, and 'How Brands Grow' by Byron Sharp as a primer on branding and marketing (though he doesn't agree with everything in it). His favourite recent products are the Arc browser, which he praises for solving tab management for chronic tab hoarders, and the Steam Deck for portable mobile gaming.

  • 'What You Do Is Who You Are' by Ben Horowitz, for building engaging cultures
  • 'How Brands Grow' by Byron Sharp, a primer on branding and marketing
  • Arc browser, praised for its approach to tab management for tab hoarders
  • Steam Deck, for its vision of truly portable mobile gaming

there's this book called How Brands grow by Byron sharp um I think it's a I don't agree necessarily with everything in it but I…

Kevin Aluwi · 58:00
#books#tools#recommendations#branding

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway16:30

The Two Most Important Things in a Consumer Business

Kevin argues the two most important things in a consumer business are product and brand, in that order, and that treating brand as an afterthought is a giant missed opportunity for consumer tech. Great brands create associations that transcend the transactional relationship and become part of a customer's identity. Despite being the underfunded underdog, Gojek credits brand with reaching escape velocity.

  • The two most important things in a consumer business are product and brand, in that order
  • Treating brand as an afterthought is a giant missed opportunity for consumer tech
  • Great brands create associations that become part of a customer's identity (Apple fans, Nike sneakerheads)
  • That loyalty can't easily be swayed by discounts or competitors' features
  • As the underfunded underdog, Gojek credits brand for reaching escape velocity

I'm very a very very big believer that the two most important things in a consumer business are product and brand in that order

Kevin Aluwi · 16:30

great Brands create associations in their customers Minds that transcend the typically transactional or utilitarian one that most people have with businesses they become part…

Kevin Aluwi · 18:00
#brand#product#gojek#strategy
Takeaway48:30

Advice for Building a Company Outside Silicon Valley

Kevin distills lessons from building in Indonesia, where the market was valuable enough to attract global competitors but the local talent and funding ecosystems were underdeveloped. His advice: be scrappy and Ops-heavy early, doing things that don't scale; get good at remote work early (Gojek built an engineering center in Bangalore in 2015); and don't just copy, because Gojek wasn't an Uber clone but a solution built around the uniquely Indonesian motorcycle-taxi phenomenon.

  • Indonesia was a valuable market that attracted global competitors but had underdeveloped local talent and funding
  • Be scrappy and Ops-heavy early, doing things that don't scale through other means
  • Get good at remote work early; Gojek built an engineering center in Bangalore in 2015
  • Don't just copy: Gojek wasn't an Uber clone but built around the motorcycle-taxi phenomenon
  • Understanding unique market dynamics drove both product and branding innovation

don't just copy um because gojek was not like an Uber clone uh uh even though that was kind of how you know some investors…

Kevin Aluwi · 50:30
#founders#startups#remote-work#gojek
Takeaway1:00:30

Whoever Is Accountable Should Also Be the Decider

Asked about a minor change with a big impact on execution, Kevin says being very clear that whoever is accountable for the result should also be the decider. He pushes back on well-intentioned literature saying product teams should be communal 'best ideas come from everywhere' groups: everyone should contribute ideas, but not being clear about who is accountable and who decides slows execution. Making the decider explicit significantly improved Gojek's execution.

  • Whoever is accountable for the result should also be the decider
  • Everyone should contribute ideas, but that's different from who decides
  • The communal 'best ideas come from everywhere' model can slow execution when accountability is unclear
  • Making the decider explicit significantly improved Gojek's execution

whoever is accountable for the result should also be the design the decider

Kevin Aluwi · 1:00:30
#product#decision-making#leadership#execution