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Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)10 March 2024

Product management theater

6Frameworks
14Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 6

Hot Take12:30

The Over-Hiring That Created Product Management Theater

Marty Kagan argues companies over-hired during the pandemic and lowered the bar, stacking on roles like agile coaches, product owners, product ops, and business analysts. Combined with a higher cost of funds and the looming impact of generative AI, this created a wave of 'theater' roles that produce little real outcome for their cost. He says the waste at these companies is embarrassing and a reckoning is now underway.

  • Companies over-hired during the pandemic and lowered the hiring bar at the same time
  • Team size has ballooned outside Silicon Valley with agile coaches, product owners, product ops, and business analysts
  • Rising cost of funds and predicted generative-AI impact are hitting simultaneously
  • Better companies do far more with far fewer people
  • Kagan wrote an article a decade ago called 'epic waste' warning about this

I go into some companies honestly I can't believe all the ridiculous roles that they have

Marty Kagan · 14:00

of course I'm talking about agile coaches and product owners and product Ops and business analysts and all these assistant product manager types

Marty Kagan · 15:00
#product management#hiring#theater#layoffs
Hot Take25:00

A Real Product Manager Is a Creator, Not a Facilitator

Kagan pushes back hard on the idea that a product manager's job is to 'say why' or facilitate. On a real empowered team the PM is a creator who works side by side with design and engineering to invent solutions. He argues the 'why' actually comes from product strategy, so a PM who defines their role as facilitation is scrambling to justify their job.

  • A real empowered product manager is a creator, not a facilitator
  • The 'why' comes from product strategy, not from the PM
  • The PM owns value and viability, just as engineers own feasibility
  • Solutions come from side-by-side creation with design and engineering

product manager is a Creator not a facilitator I always cringe when somebody tells me oh my job is to say why

Marty Kagan · 25:00
#product management#role definition
Hot Take33:30

Why 90% of Product Advice Online Is Wrong

Kagan argues that a new product manager searching online will mostly find content produced by the feature-team world, which propagates the wrong model. He extends this to communities, where well-meaning people answer questions with what they learned at their own weak companies. The result is a self-propagating cycle of bad practice that even good books rarely counter.

  • Roughly 90% of online product content comes from the feature-team world or worse
  • New PMs rarely get lucky enough to find a manager guiding them the right way
  • Community members answer questions with what they learned at their crappy companies
  • Kagan cites Teresa Torres's Continuous Discovery Habits as a rare good exception

you look online probably what 90% of the content out there is from the feature team world or worst

Marty Kagan · 33:30

the majority of the well-meaning people jump in with what they learn at their crappy company

Marty Kagan · 35:30
#product management#advice#community
Hot Take40:30

Is It Ever Okay to Just Be a Feature Team?

Asked whether a B2B sales-driven company can be content as a feature factory, Kagan says no. He argues this is exactly why most B2B software is bad, pointing to companies like Oracle and SAP that are valuable but widely disliked. For him the real question is whether you care about your customers at all, and an empowered product team can do everything a feature team can and more.

  • Sales-driven feature factories are a big reason most B2B software is poor
  • Oracle and SAP are hugely valuable but widely disliked products
  • Many sales-driven companies run that way because the CEO isn't a product person
  • An empowered product team can do everything a feature team can and more

this is not an accident why most B2B software is such crap it is horrible

Marty Kagan · 40:30

why are you in this business do you really not care what your customers think about your products

Marty Kagan · 42:30
#product management#b2b#sales-driven
Hot Take52:30

If You're a Backlog Administrator, Good Luck

Kagan expects generative AI to compound the pressure on weak product roles. He warns that anyone who is fundamentally a backlog administrator or feature-team project manager is doing largely administrative work that AI can already assist with. For empowered product managers, though, viability becomes an even harder and more important challenge that AI is unlikely to solve soon.

  • Backlog administration is administrative work AI will increasingly support
  • Feature-team project managers do little that is truly high-value
  • For empowered PMs, viability becomes even more important with gen AI
  • Probabilistic vs deterministic software raises hard legal and ethical viability questions

if you are fundamentally a backlog administrator good luck protecting that

Marty Kagan · 53:00
#product management#ai#career#viability
Hot Take1:11:30

When Product Ops Means 'Process and Governance', Run

Kagan clarifies that product ops is analogous to DevOps and design ops, and at good companies it simply brings user research and data analysts under one leader. But he warns that when a company defines product ops around 'process and governance', that's a huge red flag. He also cautions that product-ops staff hired to do the product leaders' job are very vulnerable.

  • Product ops is analogous to DevOps and design ops, not the operating model
  • At good companies it unites user research and data analysts under one leader
  • Defining product ops as process and governance is a major warning sign
  • Product ops hired to do the leaders' job or the PM's dirty work is an anti-pattern

process in governance that's like a huge red flag and I try to tell people if that's what you see run don't walk away from…

Marty Kagan · 1:12:30
#product ops#product management#governance

Explainer· 3

Explainer20:30

Feature Teams Ship Output, Product Teams Deliver Outcomes

Kagan draws the core distinction between a feature team and an empowered product team. A feature team is handed a roadmap of features to design, build, test, and deploy on a deadline; a product team is instead given customer or business problems to solve, and is measured on whether the problem is actually solved. He stresses that strong product companies don't reward shipping, they reward delivered value.

  • Feature teams are given a roadmap of output with dates and told to deliver
  • Empowered product teams are given problems to solve, usually one or two per quarter
  • The measure of a product team is that the problem is solved, not that something shipped
  • Delivering output is far easier than delivering outcomes

it is a lot easier to deliver output than it is to deliver outcomes

Marty Kagan · 21:30

you just don't get points for shipping you get points for delivering the value

Marty Kagan · 22:00
#product management#outcomes#empowerment
Explainer44:30

Empowerment Doesn't Mean Teams Pick Their Own Work

Reacting to the claim that Meta is secretly top-down, Kagan says what was described is exactly how good product companies work, and he doesn't frame it as top-down at all. Product leaders make the strategic bets; product teams get real latitude to solve them. He corrects the common misunderstanding that empowerment means teams decide what to work on, which would just be anarchy.

  • Product teams don't set product strategy; product leaders do
  • Leaders make the bets, then give teams latitude to figure out solutions
  • Empowerment does not mean teams choose what to work on
  • Teams choosing their own work would produce 50 teams doing 50 things

product teams don't do product strategy product leaders do product strategy

Marty Kagan · 45:00

empowerment does not mean you set up this product team and they go decide what to work on no that would just be Anarchy

Marty Kagan · 46:30
#product management#empowerment#strategy#leadership
Explainer55:00

Value vs Viability, Explained

Kagan gives his one-sentence definition: value means it works for the customer, while viability means it works for your business. Viability covers whether you can sell it, market it, service it, and whether it's legal and compliant. He uses Airbnb as an example, where getting people to sign up was easy but making listings legal in San Francisco was the hard part.

  • Value means it works for the customer; viability means it works for the business
  • Viability spans sales, marketing, service, legal, and compliance constraints
  • At Airbnb, signups were easy but making listings legal was the hard part
  • The product manager is responsible for value and viability

value means for the customer viability means for your business

Marty Kagan · 55:00

it wasn't so hard to get people to sign up it was hard to make listings legal in San Francisco

Marty Kagan · 55:00
#product management#viability#value

Story· 1

Story26:00

The 30 Customer Visits That Changed His Career

Kagan recounts that his coach wouldn't let him take a product manager role until he had visited 30 customers in person, 15 in the US and 15 in Europe. He thought he already understood his customers, but the visits proved he didn't. He uses the story to make the point that becoming a genuine expert on your users and customers is a foundational, non-negotiable PM skill.

  • His coach required 30 in-person customer visits before he could take the PM role
  • 15 visits in the US and 15 in Europe
  • He assumed he knew his customers and discovered he really didn't
  • Deep expertise on users and customers is a core product-manager skill

those 30 customers changed my life because I thought I knew our customers and I really didn't

Marty Kagan · 26:00
#product management#customer research#career

Tool· 1

Tool1:18:00

Marty Kagan's Book Recommendations

In the lightning round Kagan recommends two books. Tony Fadell's 'Build' describes the product model for hardware devices, drawn from Fadell's front-row seat on the iPod, iPhone, and Nest. He also praises Tim Urban's 'What's Our Problem?', from the author of Wait But Why, as a provocative read that challenged him in many ways.

  • 'Build' by Tony Fadell covers the product model for hardware devices
  • Fadell had a front-row seat on the iPod, iPhone, and Nest
  • 'What's Our Problem?' by Tim Urban (Wait But Why) was provocative and challenging

I love the the new book from Tony Fidel called build It's a Wonderful book

Marty Kagan · 1:18:00
#books#recommendations

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway22:00

CEOs Care About Time to Money, Not Time to Market

Kagan explains how he reframes product value for executives. CEOs and CFOs already know how to do time to market, so that's the easy part; the harder and more important challenge is time to money. Framing the work this way resonates with leaders because it's what they actually care about, and it's exactly what a real product team is built to deliver.

  • Time to market is well understood and the easy part
  • Time to money is the harder challenge that leaders actually care about
  • Only when you sign up for an outcome do you truly need a product manager

it's about time to money more than time to Market

Marty Kagan · 22:30
#product management#leadership#outcomes
Takeaway1:15:30

Founders: Don't Hire a Product Manager Too Soon

Kagan advises founders against hiring product managers too early. Before product-market fit, value and viability are the founder's job, so bringing in a real product manager creates too many cooks in the kitchen and slows things down. He suggests waiting until after product-market fit, or roughly 20 to 25 engineers, before adding a PM.

  • Before product-market fit, value and viability are the founder's job
  • Hiring a real PM too soon causes conflict and slows everything down
  • After product-market fit is a better time to hire a product manager
  • Roughly 20 to 25 engineers is a useful threshold to consider one

it usually causes conflict if they bring in a real product manager too soon it's too many cooks in the kitchen

Marty Kagan · 1:16:30

after product Market fit it's a better time to hire product manager

Lenny · 1:17:00
#startups#founders#hiring#product management
Takeaway1:21:30

If You're Thinking Without Writing, You Just Think You're Thinking

Kagan shares the idea he passes on most often: writing is how you actually develop your thinking. He quotes Leslie Lamport, saying that if you're thinking without writing you only think you're thinking. He connects it to his own reason for writing, which is to figure out and crystallize the ideas in his head.

  • Writing helps you think and develop your thinking skills
  • Quote attributed to Leslie Lamport, inventor of an early word processor (LaTeX)
  • Kagan writes to crystallize the ideas in his head into something that makes sense

if you're thinking without writing you just think you're thinking

Marty Kagan · 1:22:00
#writing#thinking#advice