Camille Hearst (Spotify, Patreon, Apple, YouTube)20 August 2023

Monetizing passions, scaling marketplaces, and stories from a creator economy vet

4Frameworks

14Insights

Episode overview

Lenny Rachitsky interviews Spotify fan-monetization leader Camille Hearst about helping creators convert audience passion into sustainable income. Hearst explains why creator marketplaces need strong supply, predictable output, collaboration, and genuine problem selection, while reflecting on Kit’s acquisition by Patreon and her work at Apple, YouTube, and Hailo. She also discusses dual-track discovery, prioritizing risky high-upside ideas, and the human difficulty of charging fans for creative work.

Key ideas

Creators generally need to grow an audience and get paid, with audience growth opening multiple monetization paths.
Consistent, predictable publishing and collaboration with other creators help develop skill and expand distribution.
Subscription platforms can smooth volatile creative income, but they can also create a relentless content-production treadmill.
Most marketplaces should establish and serve supply first because demand cannot convert when the shelves are empty.
Founders considering acquisition should build relationships with potential buyers early and manage a sale as a deliberate process.
Product teams should run discovery and delivery concurrently, de-risking the highest-upside assumptions before defaulting to smaller, safer work.
Creator platforms still have opportunities in areas such as financing, health insurance, production support, and new fan-monetization formats.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Innovation5 steps

De-Risk the Biggest Swings First

Run discovery and delivery in parallel — and put the top-right, riskiest bets into discovery first.

Read →

Entrepreneurship4 steps

Sell-Ready From Day One

Acquisitions rarely just happen — seed acquirer relationships early, then run the sale like a fundraise.

Read →

Strategy5 steps

Supply-First Marketplace Building

Marketplaces aren't chicken-and-egg — they're two-sided, and you always start with supply.

Read →

Marketing4 steps

The Creator Growth Triad

Consistency, collaboration, and curator association — the three levers that have made creators since 2010.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 15

Camille HearstMentionsCamille is head of fan monetization at Spotify. Before that, she was head of product for creators at Patreon.
“Today, my guest is Camille Hearst. Camille is head of fan monetization at Spotify.”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“Thank you so much for having me, Lenny.”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
Adam FishmanMentionsI've been a chief product officer and VP of growth and product at a bunch of different companies imperfect Foods patreon Lyft
“I first wanted to just give a big thank you to Adam Fishman for introducing us”
▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
Kai CenatMentionsDid you see what happened in Union Square here with Kai, the gaming streamer?
“Did you see what happened in Union Square here with Kai, the gaming streamer?”
▶ Watch at ~16:30approx.
Michelle PhanMentionsI think of like Michelle Phan, right? She's basically a mini Disney.
“I think of like Michelle Phan, right? She's basically a mini Disney.”
▶ Watch at ~17:30approx.
Steve JobsMentionsSteve Jobs is just uh the bar he held for the company and for technical talent and for excellence was not uh wavering.
“Though Steve Jobs lore was that if you were in an elevator with him, you better be prepared to talk about what you do”
▶ Watch at ~35:30approx.
Brian CheskyMentionsBrian chesky at Airbnb there was a whole article where we unpacked this moment in their product development cycle
“Brian Chesky at Airbnb shared that they shifted the role of product manager to essentially the Apple model”
▶ Watch at ~43:00approx.
Hiroki AsaiMentionsAirbnb executive and former Apple creative director who worked with Steve Jobs.
“I know they hired Hiroki actually from from Apple.”
▶ Watch at ~43:00approx.
Judson CoplanMentionsI don't know if you know Judson Copeland, it's a dear friend of mine. We interned that same summer at Apple.
“I don't know if you know Judson Copeland, it's a dear friend of mine. We interned that same summer at Apple.”
▶ Watch at ~43:30approx.
Tina TurnerMentionsTina Turner, probably who recently passed away, probably one of the more famous, more well-known practitioners of Nichiren Buddhism
“Tina Turner, probably who recently passed away, probably one of the more famous, more well-known practitioners of Nichiren Buddhism”
▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
Marty CaganMentionsMarty has been helping product teams and product managers improve their craft processes and careers for over 20 years
“I had this great manager in my experience at Halo who turned me on to Marty Cagan”
▶ Watch at ~52:30approx.
Octavia E. ButlerCoinedThree-Body Problem, A Wrinkle in Time, and Octavia Butler's Kindred.
“Three-Body Problem, A Wrinkle in Time, and Octavia Butler's Kindred.”
▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
Idris ElbaMentionsI've been watching Hijack over the last week with Idris Elba.
“I've been watching Hijack over the last week with Idris Elba.”
▶ Watch at ~58:00approx.
Christopher NolanMentionsI mean I'm a huge Christopher Nolan fan.
“I mean I'm a huge Christopher Nolan fan.”
▶ Watch at ~58:00approx.
RemaRecommendsthere's this artist called Rema, R E M A
“there's this artist called Rema, R E M A, who I first heard a couple years ago.”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.

Resources · 34

Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
KitCoinedcompany · Camille Hearst
“She started a company called Kit that she sold to Patreon.”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
YouTubeMentionswebsite · Google
“She was product marketing manager at YouTube and the second PM on iTunes.”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
PatreonMentionscompany
“Before that, she was head of product for creators at Patreon.”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
SubstackUseswebsite · Substack Inc.
“I have that experience myself with Substack, which is a subscription newsletter.”
▶ Watch at ~12:00approx.
LennybotUseswebsite · Lenny Rachitsky
“I have this lennybot.com site which is an AI chatbot based on all of my content”
▶ Watch at ~13:30approx.
InstagramMentionssoftware · Meta
“YouTube, Spotify, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, maybe Substack.”
▶ Watch at ~14:30approx.
TikTokMentionssoftware · ByteDance
“YouTube, Spotify, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, maybe Substack.”
▶ Watch at ~14:30approx.
TwitchMentionscompany
“I think we saw a huge massive creation there in Twitch. Right? Twitch did not exist and they are just a juggernaut.”
▶ Watch at ~16:00approx.
Stanford UniversityMentionsplace
“StartX that's run out of Stanford which is my alma mater.”
▶ Watch at ~24:00approx.
StartXUsescourse · Stanford University
“I would actually did this startup accelerator called StartX that's run out of Stanford which is my alma mater.”
▶ Watch at ~24:00approx.
PatreonUsescompany
“in the end it made the most sense for us to have an exit and join forces with Patreon.”
▶ Watch at ~24:30approx.
AirbnbUsescompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk
“We sold our company to Airbnb and that's how we got to Airbnb.”
▶ Watch at ~27:00approx.
LyftMentionscompany
“at the time was a huge competitor to Uber and Lyft in the ride hailing ride sharing and ride hailing space.”
▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
HailoUsescompany
“which was at a startup called Halo. Um based out of London.”
▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
UberMentionscompany · Uber
“at the time was a huge competitor to Uber and Lyft in the ride hailing ride sharing and ride hailing space.”
▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
RoverMentionscompany
“Oh, you know what it was? Uh Rover. Rover had no problem it turns out with supply”
▶ Watch at ~32:30approx.
iTunesUsessoftware · Apple
“I think I was the second person in iTunes group with that title.”
▶ Watch at ~35:30approx.
AppleUsescompany · Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, and Ronald Wayne
“it's my first day of my internship at Apple.”
▶ Watch at ~37:00approx.
GoogleUsescompany · Google
“So, that was one of the stark differences I saw in my transition from Apple to Google.”
▶ Watch at ~44:00approx.
What's Love Got to Do with ItMentionsfilm
“If you've ever seen What's Love Got to Do with It, Tina Turner”
▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
Three-Body ProblemRecommendsbook · Liu Cixin
“Three-Body Problem, A Wrinkle in Time, and Octavia Butler's Kindred.”
▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
KindredRecommendsbook · Octavia E. Butler
“Three-Body Problem, A Wrinkle in Time, and Octavia Butler's Kindred.”
▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
A Wrinkle in TimeRecommendsbook · Madeleine L'Engle
“Three-Body Problem, A Wrinkle in Time, and Octavia Butler's Kindred.”
▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
FoundationUsestv show · Isaac Asimov
“I've been watching Foundation, which is also another series I've been excited to see”
▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
Battlestar GalacticaUsestv show
“I watched um Battlestar Galactica. Classic. Um The Expanse.”
▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
The ExpanseUsestv show
“I watched um Battlestar Galactica. Classic. Um The Expanse.”
▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
SiloRecommendstv show · Hugh Howey
“That's a good one to read cuz in the show they're just making up stories.”
▶ Watch at ~57:30approx.
OppenheimerMentionsfilm · Christopher Nolan
“So I haven't seen Oppenheimer yet but I can't wait to see it.”
▶ Watch at ~58:00approx.
HijackRecommendstv show
“I've been watching Hijack over the last week with Idris Elba. So that's been fun.”
▶ Watch at ~58:00approx.
Shadow and BoneRecommendstv show
“another good one, Shadow and Bone on Netflix.”
▶ Watch at ~58:30approx.
Six of CrowsMentionsbook · Leigh Bardugo
“Well, I read one series, the Six of Crows.”
▶ Watch at ~58:30approx.
Calm DownRecommendsother · Rema
“he has song out right now that is my opinion song of the summer called Calm Down.”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.
DumebiMentionsother · Rema
“He's got this track called Dumebi.”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 4

Hot Take08:30

Why Musicians Struggle to Charge Their Own Fans

Camille observes a persistent 'starving artist' ethos among musicians who want to give everything away for free because they're moved that fans love their work. But a value exchange has to happen for a creative person to make a living. This dynamic is far more pronounced with musicians than other creators, which makes fan-monetization work genuinely hard.

Many artists want to give fans everything for free out of gratitude
A value exchange is required for a creative to live from their art
The 'starving artist' ethos is strongest among musicians
Common feedback: run the listening party but don't sell anything

“a lot of the feedback we get is oh, that's awesome. I want to have a listening party, have everything be free, and just have…”
Camille Hearst · 09:30

“But, musicians in particular, I think, kind of tend to shy away from that, which makes the kind of thing that I'm working on more…”
Camille Hearst · 10:00

#creator economy#musicians#monetization#pricing

Hot Take15:00

Why the Big Platforms Won the Creator Economy

Camille argues it was predictable that platforms would win because of the strong network effects of aggregation — once you have the supply or the demand, it's hard for challengers to break in. She credits the incumbents' strategic foresight in building features that kept creators from churning. The funding rush chased vertical-specific openings, and she points to Twitch and TikTok as juggernauts born of that era.

Aggregation creates strong network effects that are hard to break
Big platforms strategically built features to prevent creator churn
Vertical-specific tooling was where new opportunity remained
Twitch and TikTok emerged as juggernauts from this wave

“I think it was probably predictable to some degree that platforms would win because just the the nature of aggregation.”
Camille Hearst · 15:00

#creator economy#platforms#network effects#aggregation

Hot Take31:30

Marketplaces Aren't Chicken-and-Egg — Start With Supply

From working the supply side at ride-hailing startup Halo, Camille learned that no matter how good the UX, marketing, or demand generation is, the business fails if a user opens the app and there are no cars. She rejects the 'chicken and egg' framing: marketplaces are two-sided and you should start with supply. Lenny compares supply to the stuff on a store's shelves — no shelves stocked, no business — with Rover as a rare exception where supply was easy.

At Halo, empty supply broke the experience regardless of UX or demand
Camille rejects 'chicken and egg' — start with the supply side
Supply is like a store's shelves; nothing on them means no business
Rover was a rare case where supply (dog-sitters) was easy and demand was the challenge

“So, you know, a lot of people talk about marketplaces as chicken and egg. I actually just think they're two-sided and you should start with…”
Camille Hearst · 31:30

“The way I think about it is that's like if you have a store, that's the stuff on your shelves. And you're not going to…”
Lenny Rachitsky · 32:30

#marketplaces#supply side#product#ride hailing

Hot Take55:30

'Draw the Owl' — Just Figure It Out

Camille shares a favorite value from Twilio: 'draw the owl.' The meme runs — how do you draw an owl? You draw some circles, then you draw the rest of the owl. The point is that sometimes you just have to go for it, start with some circles, and figure out the path as you go rather than waiting to know it in advance.

'Draw the owl' is a Twilio company value
The joke: draw some circles, then draw the rest of the owl
Lesson: just start and figure out how to do it
You won't know the exact path — begin anyway

“and then you draw a [ __ ] owl. So, it's like just do it.”
Camille Hearst · 56:00

#values#execution#mindset#twilio

Explainer· 2

Explainer04:30

How Spotify Turns Fandom Into Artist Revenue

As head of fan monetization, Camille's team builds new ways for artists to earn directly from their most passionate fans. The most mature channel is merch — which most people don't realize Spotify even sells — increasingly framed as rewards like exclusive discounts, designs, or early access for top listeners. Listening parties are another lever, with more group-based monetization ideas in the works.

The goal is turning fan passion into money that goes directly to the artist
Merch is the most mature channel; Spotify is making it more prominent
Merch is being reframed as rewards for top listeners (discounts, exclusive designs, early access)
Listening parties are another monetization format they've tested

“Yeah, so one of the ones that most mature is merch, um which is funny to say because most people probably don't realize that you…”
Camille Hearst · 05:30

#creator economy#monetization#spotify#fandom

Explainer43:00

Apple's Craftspeople vs. Google's 3D-Chess Strategists

Camille contrasts the product cultures she worked in. Apple was design-and-engineering led, staffed by craftspeople who tinker, build, and see what feels right — and had no product manager title, only product marketing managers. Google, by contrast, was full of ex-Coca-Cola, McKinsey, and Bain strategists 'playing 3D chess' about the next move. She notes Brian Chesky's Apple-model shift at Airbnb makes sense given his designer roots.

Apple was design/engineering led — craftspeople over strategy people
Apple had no PM title, only product marketing managers
Google was staffed with McKinsey/Bain-style strategists 'playing 3D chess'
Chesky's Apple-model shift fits his designer background

“the Apple construct, it's much more of like design and engineering kind of led organizations. Crafts people, I would say, more so than strategy people.”
Camille Hearst · 43:30

“let's 3D chess our way into what our next move is going to be. Whereas at Apple, it was let tinker and let craft and…”
Camille Hearst · 44:00

#product management#apple#google#company culture

Story· 3

Story16:30

A Twitch Streamer Shut Down New York City

Lenny recounts how a Twitch streamer named Kai announced he'd give away PlayStations and computer gear in Union Square, and roughly a million teenage boys showed up — forcing authorities to shut down the center of New York City to clear what became a riot. The kicker: this creator is someone most podcast listeners have never heard of, illustrating the scale of modern creator fandom.

Kai, a gaming streamer, promised free PlayStations and gear in Union Square
Roughly a million teenagers showed up, causing a protest/riot mob
New York City's center had to be shut down to clear it
The creator is largely unknown to mainstream audiences

“And last week there was a mob and a riot because a Twitch streamer announced that he was going to be giving away PlayStations and…”
Lenny Rachitsky · 16:30

#creator economy#twitch#streaming#fandom

Story23:00

Raising $2M and Selling Kit to Patreon

Camille started her curation startup Kit in 2015 and raised over $2 million — an accomplishment she frames against venture capital's poor track record of funding people of color, women, and non-cisgender-white-male founders. The company grew key metrics but faced hard choices at the bridge/Series A stage. Through Stanford's StartX accelerator she learned M&A, and in 2018 sold Kit to Patreon.

Kit, a gear-curation startup, was founded in 2015
Raised over $2M despite VC's biased funding track record
Faced bridge-round vs. Series A decisions as an early creator-economy bet
Learned M&A via Stanford's StartX accelerator; sold to Patreon in 2018

“We managed to raise some money, raised over $2 million which is a huge accomplishment, especially if you know anything about venture capital.”
Camille Hearst · 23:00

“they have a horrible track record when it comes to funding people of color, women, people who are non cisgender white male.”
Camille Hearst · 23:30

#startups#venture capital#acquisition#patreon

Story35:30

The Steve Jobs Elevator Lore — and Saying Hi Anyway

Apple lore held that Steve Jobs would corner people in elevators asking 'What do you do here?' — and a wrong answer could be your last day. One colleague, ambushed by an approaching Jobs, panicked, hit the close-door button, and bolted down the hallway. On Camille's first day as an iTunes intern, having just attended his famous Stanford commencement speech, she walked up to Jobs at lunch to thank him. He was baffled she was an intern, but she didn't get fired — and afterward always waved hi.

Lore: Jobs quizzed people in elevators with 'What do you do here?'
A panicked colleague hit close-door and ran from an approaching Jobs
Camille had just attended Jobs' 2005 Stanford commencement speech
On day one she thanked him in person — confusing him, but she wasn't fired

“if you were in an elevator with him, you better be prepared to talk about what you do at the company because he had a…”
Camille Hearst · 36:00

“And that was it. I didn't get fired and I said hello to Steve.”
Camille Hearst · 40:30

#steve jobs#apple#story#career

Q&A· 1

Q&A25:00

How to Actually Sell Your Company

Asked for acquisition advice, Camille offers two lessons: treat selling like a managed process (like fundraising — meet many potential acquirers through a funnel), and start building relationships with potential acquirers from the very beginning. She started those conversations too late, so her eventual acquirer was meeting her for the first time rather than the fifth. Lenny adds that acquisition talks work best framed as partnership, never a direct 'want to buy us?'

Treat selling as a managed process, not a lucky event
Talk to potential acquirers and share your vision from day one
Established relationships make an acquirer more receptive later
Frame early conversations as partnership, not a direct sale ask

“Start preparing to sell your company from the moment you found it, which is kind of a weird thing”
Camille Hearst · 26:30

“I find even when you're starting to chat about acquisitions, you never want to say directly, "Hey, you want to buy us?"”
Lenny Rachitsky · 28:00

#startups#acquisition#m&a#founder advice

Takeaway· 4

Takeaway12:00

The Hamster Wheel: The Downside of Subscription Creation

Lenny describes an under-discussed downside of paid subscriptions: once fans buy an annual subscription, you're locked into producing for another year with no easy exit. Camille calls this the internal 'hamster wheel of content creation' — you climb on because you love it, then can't figure out how to get off. It's an open challenge for platforms to help creators sustain or pause without losing income.

Annual subscriptions obligate creators to keep producing to avoid killing revenue
There's often no clean exit path once you start charging
Camille's team internally calls this the 'hamster wheel of content creation'
Platforms could add value by easing creation or offering creator financing

“once you start charging, people start buying say an annual subscription. And that means I have to at least go for another year.”
Lenny Rachitsky · 12:00

“We call it um internally the hamster wheel of content creation. Like you get on cuz you love it and then how do you get…”
Camille Hearst · 12:30

#creator economy#subscriptions#burnout#substack

Takeaway19:30

Three Things That Make Creators Succeed

From her YouTube playbook days onward, Camille has seen the same success factors hold: consistency and predictability of quality output (almost a 10,000-hours effect), collaboration with other creators to cross-pollinate audiences, and associating with curators. Curators act like a record label or radio station — a trusted brand whose recommendations audiences follow.

Consistent, predictable, quality output compounds over time
Collaboration lets creators share and expose each other's audiences
Curators function like a trusted label/radio-station brand
Associating with aligned curators is a third growth lever

“there is something to turning out consistent quality work and putting it out there for your audience to consume and respond and react to that…”
Camille Hearst · 20:00

“You, I trust your vibe. Tell me what I should be listening to.”
Camille Hearst · 22:00

#creator economy#growth#consistency#curation

Takeaway46:00

Every Creator Needs Two Things: Audience and Income

For anyone building a platform for creators, Camille's advice is to solve a real problem — and at the core every creator needs just two things: to grow an audience and to get paid to make a living. She leans toward audience being more important, since audience unlocks monetization paths. The space is far from solved, so pick a real problem and go for it.

Building for creators starts with solving a genuinely real problem
Every creator needs to grow an audience and to get paid
Audience may matter more because it unlocks monetization
The creator space is nowhere near 'done' — plenty of problems remain

“I think at the core, every creator needs two things. They need to grow an audience and they need to get paid so that they…”
Camille Hearst · 46:30

“So, my advice would be to look at the problems that exist and pick a real one and go for it.”
Camille Hearst · 47:30

#creator economy#platforms#founder advice#monetization

Takeaway59:30

The Best Time to Plant a Tree Was 20 Years Ago

In the lightning round the two trade favorite mottos. Camille shares a Japanese proverb — a frog in a well cannot know the ocean — about pushing past your limits to experience more of the world. Lenny counters with a proverb he calls better: the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and the second best time is now — you may have missed the prime moment, but waiting longer won't help.

Camille's motto: 'a frog in a well cannot know the ocean' — expand your horizons
Lenny's motto: best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; second best is now
Both push against delay and toward starting despite a missed prime window

“so but this phrase is a frog in a well cannot know the ocean.”
Camille Hearst · 59:30

“the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.”
Lenny Rachitsky · 1:00:00

#mottos#mindset#life advice#proverbs

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

De-Risk the Biggest Swings First

Sell-Ready From Day One

Supply-First Marketplace Building

The Creator Growth Triad

People & resources mentioned

People · 15

Resources · 34

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 4

Why Musicians Struggle to Charge Their Own Fans

Why the Big Platforms Won the Creator Economy

Marketplaces Aren't Chicken-and-Egg — Start With Supply

'Draw the Owl' — Just Figure It Out

✶Explainer· 2

How Spotify Turns Fandom Into Artist Revenue

Apple's Craftspeople vs. Google's 3D-Chess Strategists

❝Story· 3

A Twitch Streamer Shut Down New York City

Raising $2M and Selling Kit to Patreon

The Steve Jobs Elevator Lore — and Saying Hi Anyway

?Q&A· 1

How to Actually Sell Your Company

▲Takeaway· 4

The Hamster Wheel: The Downside of Subscription Creation

Three Things That Make Creators Succeed

Every Creator Needs Two Things: Audience and Income

The Best Time to Plant a Tree Was 20 Years Ago

Hot Take· 4

Explainer· 2

Story· 3

Q&A· 1

Takeaway· 4