Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky (authors of Sprint and Make Tim11 February 2024

Making time for what matters

7Frameworks

13Insights

Episode overview

Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky explain Make Time as a flexible framework for putting one meaningful daily Highlight ahead of inboxes, meetings, and endlessly replenishing “infinity pools.” They cover practical ways to protect attention, sustain energy, and reflect without self-judgment, emphasizing experiments rather than rigid productivity rules. They also introduce the five-day design Sprint, which moves a team from an unresolved problem to a tested prototype, and describe how Character Labs applies repeated Sprints with pre-seed software startups.

Key ideas

Choose one daily Highlight based on urgency, satisfaction, or joy, write it down, and reserve roughly 60–90 minutes for it.
Treat the calendar as a design surface: proactively protect focus blocks and create team-level templates for focused work and meetings.
Willpower is unreliable against well-designed infinity pools, so add friction by deleting apps, logging out, separating devices, or removing internet access.
Reset communication expectations and slow the inbox-feedback loop instead of optimizing for instant responses and inbox zero.
Support attention through basic energy practices such as sufficient sleep, exercise, food, and human connection.
Reflect on each day with curiosity, asking whether the Highlight happened and what environmental, attention, or energy changes might help next time.
A design Sprint uses a scripted five-day process to turn an abstract challenge into a prototype and test it with customers.
Sprints are especially useful when startups face major behavioral or trust risks and need to learn before spending months building.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Productivity5 steps

Design Your Day (Calendar as Canvas + Groundhog Day Iteration)

Draw the day you want on the calendar, run it, see what actually happened, adjust, repeat

Read →

Self-Mastery6 steps

Laser Mode: Engineering Speed Bumps Against Distraction

Willpower never wins. Move the candy further away than the sandwich.

Read →

Productivity5 steps

Make Time: Highlight, Laser, Energize, Reflect

A daily four-step loop that changes your defaults instead of making you faster at the wrong things

Read →

Mindset4 steps

Reflect: The Daily Experiment Loop

Treat each day as an experiment you ran, not a gravestone of success or failure

Read →

Communication5 steps

Reset Expectations + Slow Your Inbox

Announce a slower response cadence with a 'because', then actually slow the hamster wheel

Read →

Productivity5 steps

The Daily Highlight

Pick the one thing you want to name as today's highlight, size it to 60-90 minutes, write it down

Read →

Innovation5 steps

The Five-Day Design Sprint

Go from zero to a tested prototype in five days — decide with customer reactions, not hunches

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 11

Jake KnappMentionsHe developed the Design Sprint after prototyping what became Google Meet, later refined it at Google Ventures, and co-founded Character Capital.
“today I've got two guests Jake knp and John zeratsky”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
John ZeratskyMentionsAuthor of Sprint and Make Time; formerly a leader on Google Ads and YouTube; co-founder of Character.
“today I've got two guests Jake knp and John zeratsky”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“today I've got two guests Jake knp and John zeratsky”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Ben WilliamsRecommendsBen Williams who's a previous guest on this podcast who suggested you join this podcast and who connected us
“a guest of this podcast Ben Williams recommended in the lightning round”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
John ZeratskyCoinedAuthor of Sprint and Make Time; formerly a leader on Google Ads and YouTube; co-founder of Character.
“the Highlight is I hate to say this it's the most powerful best part I think of the whole process”
▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
Cal NewportMentionsmentioned
“I think I learned about that from Cal Newport”
▶ Watch at ~56:00approx.
Sophie LeroyCoinedUniversity of Washington researcher credited in the conversation with coining “attention residue.”
“the researcher who coined this term is uh Sophie Leroy from the University of Washington”
▶ Watch at ~56:00approx.
Arianna HuffingtonCoinedmentioned
“I think it was Aran Huffington made a thing where it's like a little bed for your phone”
▶ Watch at ~1:02:00approx.
Tim FerrissMentionsCited for his fear-setting framework and as an influence on Paul Millerd's five-episode podcast experiment.
“so Tim Ferris talked about this in the four-hour work week”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:30approx.
Donald TrumpMentionsthere's about three pages in the book where I basically say being a bit Donald Trump has its virtues
“with like news about Trump there's always these headlines”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
ChrissaCoinedA reader of the Make Time blog who shared the tactic of cancelling home internet.
“a reader of our blog told us about this her name is Chrissa”
▶ Watch at ~1:11:30approx.

Resources · 45

GoogleMentionscompany · Google
“previously John and Jake worked at Google Ventures and before that at Google”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
One MedicalMentionscompany
“including teams at YouTube slack Gusto and one medical”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
GustoMentionscompany
“including teams at YouTube slack Gusto and one medical”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
SlackMentionssoftware · Slack Technologies
“including teams at YouTube slack Gusto and one medical”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
SprintCoinedbook · Jake Knapp, John Zeratsky, and Braden Kowitz
“Jake and John are authors of two incredible books Sprint and make time”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
YouTubeMentionswebsite · Google
“including teams at YouTube slack Gusto and one medical”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Make TimeCoinedbook · Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky
“Jake and John are authors of two incredible books Sprint and make time”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Google AdsMentionssoftware · Google
“John was a leader on Google ads in YouTube”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
GmailCoinedsoftware · Google
“Jake helped build Gmail and co-founded Google meet”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Google MeetCoinedsoftware · Google
“Jake helped build Gmail and co-founded Google meet”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Character LabsCoinedcourse · Character Capital
“they actually just opened up applications for their accelerator program called character Labs”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
CharacterCoinedcompany · Jake Knapp, John Zeratsky, and Eli
“today they run a venture capital firm called character”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
SidebarRecommendscompany · Sidebar
“sidebar is a private highly vetted leadership program where senior leaders are matched with peer groups”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
WhimsicalRecommendssoftware · Whimsical
“this episode is brought to you by Whimsical the iterative product workspace”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
Google VenturesUsescompany · Google
“we developed the design Sprint at Google Ventures”
▶ Watch at ~7:00approx.
Google VenturesMentionscompany · Google
“I was a partner at at Google Ventures at GV”
▶ Watch at ~26:30approx.
Groundhog DayRecommendsfilm · Harold Ramis
“if you haven't seen the movie see the movie what a great movie”
▶ Watch at ~31:00approx.
ReclaimUsessoftware · Reclaim.ai
“we invested in this company called reclaim”
▶ Watch at ~32:00approx.
ReclaimUsessoftware · Reclaim.ai
“I'm an investor in reclaim also”
▶ Watch at ~32:00approx.
WorkOSRecommendscompany · WorkOS, Inc.
“this episode is brought to you by work OS”
▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
Auth0Mentionssoftware · Okta
“it's essentially a modern alternative to ozero but with better pricing and more flexible apis”
▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
AuthKitCoinedsoftware · WorkOS
“workos also recently launched authkit a complete authentication and user Management Service”
▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
InstagramMentionssoftware · Meta
“I'm not an Instagram and I'm not on Facebook”
▶ Watch at ~48:30approx.
FacebookMentionscompany · Meta
“I'm not an Instagram and I'm not on Facebook”
▶ Watch at ~48:30approx.
TwitterUseswebsite · Twitter
“I am on Twitter and Linkedin but I don't have either of those apps installed on my phone”
▶ Watch at ~49:00approx.
LinkedInUseswebsite · LinkedIn
“I am on Twitter and Linkedin but I don't have either of those apps installed on my phone”
▶ Watch at ~49:00approx.
1PasswordUsessoftware · 1Password
“I use one password”
▶ Watch at ~50:30approx.
NetflixMentionscompany · Netflix
“at that point in time there was really like Netflix and now there's all these streaming services”
▶ Watch at ~54:30approx.
The Lord of the RingsMentionsbook · J. R. R. Tolkien
“if you've ever felt like your phone was like in The Lord of the Rings”
▶ Watch at ~55:30approx.
University of WashingtonMentionscompany
“Sophie Leroy from the University of Washington”
▶ Watch at ~56:00approx.
NanitUsesproduct · Nanit
“to watch our kid with the nanet app we need our phone”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.
TikTokUsessoftware · ByteDance
“with Tik Tok she doesn't install the app and she basically relies on me to send her Tik Tok videos”
▶ Watch at ~1:02:30approx.
The 4-Hour WorkweekMentionsbook · Tim Ferriss
“so Tim Ferris talked about this in the four-hour work week”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:30approx.
The New York TimesUsescompany · The New York Times Company
“the New York Times would send me a big push”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
The EconomistUseswebsite · The Economist Group
“my main source of news is um The Economist magazine”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:30approx.
MailmanRecommendssoftware · Mailman
“it's called mailman hq.com it shuts off your Gmail for periods of time”
▶ Watch at ~1:18:00approx.
FutureUsesproduct · Future
“I use this app called future I'm a investor just quick disclaimer”
▶ Watch at ~1:21:30approx.
Make TimeRecommendsbook · Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky
“highly recommend getting the book it's called make time”
▶ Watch at ~1:24:30approx.
Make Time blogRecommendswebsite · Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky
“go to make time. blog and just like check out some of the experiments”
▶ Watch at ~1:25:00approx.
NotionUsessoftware · Notion Labs
“at our VC fund we had a conversation and decided we're gonna try to have our main communication happen in notion”
▶ Watch at ~1:25:30approx.
MiroCoinedsoftware · Miro
“a Muro board a mro template that I created that has step-by-step instructions”
▶ Watch at ~1:32:00approx.
SprintRecommendsbook · Jake Knapp, John Zeratsky, and Braden Kowitz
“if you're not quite ready to dip your toe in the whole book you can go to theprint book.com”
▶ Watch at ~1:32:00approx.
Google DeepMindMentionscompany · Google
“they came from Google deepmind and they did this for Google Data Centers before”
▶ Watch at ~1:34:00approx.
Character LabsRecommendscourse · Character Capital
“if you're thinking about starting a company or if you're in the process of starting company check out character. VC laabs”
▶ Watch at ~1:34:30approx.
Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny podcast.com”
▶ Watch at ~1:35:00approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster10:00

What Most People Get Wrong About Productivity

The common productivity mistake is trying to get faster and more efficient at whatever is already in front of you — the inbox, the meetings. Jake and John argue those are just the defaults of modern work, and the real move is to change the defaults so the single most important thing comes first, then build everything else around it.

Most productivity advice optimizes for speed on tasks already in front of you
Inbox and calendar items are 'defaults' of work culture, not priorities
The fix is to put the most important thing first, then fit the small stuff around it
You still answer messages and attend meetings — but they no longer lead

“most productivity advice focuses on getting better and faster about doing the things that are already in front of you”
10:00

“it's about how do I put the thing that is the most important first in my day or in my life”
10:30

#productivity#focus#prioritization

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take48:30

Willpower Never Wins — Build Speed Bumps Instead

The core principle of focus: you will never white-knuckle your way past distraction, so stop relying on willpower and instead make distractions hard to reach. Concrete speed bumps include deleting social apps, staying logged out, a Chrome extension that hides the LinkedIn feed, and even enabling two-factor auth purely as extra friction.

Willpower is not enough — the research and their experience both say so
Create barriers: delete apps, stay logged out, use a feed-blocking extension
A logged-out screen breaks the automatic 'twitter.com' muscle-memory loop
Two-factor authentication doubles as a deliberate speed bump against yourself

“you're not going to White Knuckle your way through like not looking at Twitter when you're trying to work so it's all about like making…”
48:30

“I also signed up for two-factor authentication for for everything not because I care about somebody hacking my account but because it's another speed bump”
50:30

#focus#distraction#willpower#tools

Explainer· 3

Explainer11:30

The Busy Bandwagon and Infinity Pools

Two forces drive most of our overwhelm. The 'busy bandwagon' is the internal feeling that you should be busy because everyone else seems to be. 'Infinity pools' are the endlessly refreshing sources of content — Instagram, but also email — engineered to be frictionless. Together they form a bad flywheel that spins out of control.

Busy bandwagon = inner pressure to be busy from perceiving what others are doing
Infinity pools = apps with endlessly replenishing content (pull-to-refresh or streams)
Email is one of the most powerful and hardest-to-resist infinity pools
Naming both lets you deliberately change the defaults around them

“we call it the busy bandwagon because it feels like should be busy”
12:00

“basically if you can pull to refresh or if it's dreams like it's an infinity pool”
13:00

#attention#overwhelm#technology#focus

Explainer56:00

Attention Residue: The Static Your Apps Leave Behind

Jake explains 'attention residue' — the idea (coined by researcher Sophie Leroy, popularized via Cal Newport) that things you've attended to stick in your head and create a low-grade static. Just knowing email is on his phone and accessible at any time creates a persistent discomfort, which is why removing it entirely — not just resisting it — matters.

Attention residue = leftover mental 'static' from what you've been paying attention to
Term coined by Sophie Leroy, University of Washington; learned via Cal Newport
Merely having email accessible on the phone creates ongoing low-level discomfort
Removing the app entirely beats trying to resist it

“there's this notion of attention residue and I think the researcher who coined this term is uh Sophie Leroy from the University of Washington”
56:00

“the idea of email being on my phone and accessible at any time creates a a discomfort a dis Qui”
56:30

#attention#focus#psychology

Explainer1:08:00

Reset Expectations, Slow Your Inbox, and the Power of 'Because'

Two email tactics that work together. 'Reset expectations' means adding a line to your signature or auto-responder saying you check email once or twice a day because you're focused on an important project — and they cite a classic photocopier study showing that just saying 'because' dramatically boosts compliance. 'Slow your inbox' means responding less often so the whole reply loop slows down.

A signature like 'I check email twice a day to improve my focus' resets others' expectations
The real power is resetting your OWN expectations of how responsive you must be
The 'because' study: giving any reason sharply increases people letting you cut the line
Respond slower and the reply-loop hamster wheel slows down for everyone

“a signature that says I'm checking email um two times a day as an experiment to improve my focus”
1:08:30

“we're suckers for explanations all of us”
1:09:30

#email#focus#communication#psychology

Story· 3

Story15:30

The Authors Grade Their Own Productivity: 'A B-Minus'

Asked how their own productivity is going, John gives brutally honest 'real talk' — he grades himself a B to B-minus on any given day, sometimes a C or a D. The point isn't perfection; it's that even the people who wrote the book are running an ongoing, imperfect series of experiments, and 99% of people chasing productivity hacks still feel overwhelmed.

Even the authors don't have productivity 'solved' — it's an ongoing battle
John self-grades a B/B-minus, sometimes a C or D, occasionally an A
99% of people following productivity advice still feel overwhelmed and stressed
The value is in having a framework you can return to, not doing it perfectly

“it seems like 99% of the people who follow those things are still feeling overwhelmed they're still stressed out”
08:00

“at any given point in time you know I probably give myself a a b to you know B minus and sometimes it's a c…”
18:00

#productivity#honesty#mindset

Story40:00

The Sled Run: Ditching Your Highlight for the Moment That Actually Matters

Jake tells a vivid story about a day his planned highlight was prepping for this podcast. Deep in focus, his 12-year-old son burst in asking him to go sledding in rare snow. His first reaction was no — but he realized the sled run, not the podcast prep, was the thing he'd actually remember. He went, it was magical, and he still got the prep done afterward.

Jake's planned highlight was prepping for the podcast; he blew two focus blocks
His son interrupted asking to sled in rare snowfall on their Washington island
He reframed: the sled run was the real highlight worth remembering
He went sledding, then still finished the prep — 'a mess' but a good day

“what's really going to be the highlight of my day what's really going to be the highlight the thing that I might actually remember in…”
42:00

“there's not maybe any more days in his life that he's gonna want me to get on the sled with him and wrap my arms…”
42:00

#family#priorities#focus#story

Story53:00

Delete the Infinity Pools Off Your Phone — the Relief Is the Reward

Jake describes rage-deleting every infinity-pool app off his phone in 2012 after catching himself ignoring his kids for email. The phone fights you — 'this will delete all your data, are you sure?' — but on the other side is relief: 'I don't have to check this.' His advice: if you can't delete everything, delete the one app that's your Kryptonite, even just for two hours.

Jake deleted email, Facebook and every infinity-pool app in 2012 out of frustration
Deleting nothing is truly lost — you can reinstall and log back in anytime
The payoff is a feeling of relief: 'I don't have to check this'
If you can't delete everything, remove the single app that's your 'Kryptonite'

“usually a feeling of discomfort but also relief that like I don't have to check this this thing”
55:00

“just try taking off the thing that's your Kryptonite what's the thing that you you know is the hardest for you to resist”
57:30

#distraction#phone#focus#habits

Tool· 3

Tool1:11:30

Cancel the Internet (Literally) for Deep Work

An extreme but powerful tactic a reader named Chrissa suggested: cancel the internet. Jake canceled internet at his small office so the only work possible there is offline — writing, design, focused thinking. At home you can approximate it with a cheap vacation timer wired to your router that switches the internet off at set hours, making it a real pain to get back online.

Jake canceled internet at his office so only offline focus work is possible there
The reader Chrissa canceled internet at home entirely
At home, a vacation timer on the router can switch internet off at set hours
The friction must exceed one Wi-Fi click to actually act as a speed bump

“it's to cancel the internet and she had cancel the internet at home which is wild”
1:11:30

“you can actually like buy one of those like vacation timers plug it into the wall plug your router into that and it will actually…”
1:12:30

#deep-work#focus#tools#distraction

Tool1:20:30

Sleep First, and Outsource Energy to a Personal Trainer

On energizing, John says that with age he's realized sleep is the single most important thing — no phone or TV in the bedroom, and an eye mask that helps him fall and stay asleep. For exercise, rather than relying on willpower he hired a personal trainer for accountability and structure. Lenny adds he uses the app Future, a remote personal trainer, to work out three times a week.

Sleep is the single most important energy lever; keep phone and TV out of the bedroom
An eye mask helps John fall asleep and stay asleep
A personal trainer provides the accountability and schedule willpower can't
Lenny uses Future (app-based remote trainer) to train three times a week

“sleep is is probably the single most important thing”
1:20:30

“I ended up like like signing on with a personal trainer so that I have like accountability I have like a schedule”
1:21:00

#energy#sleep#exercise#tools

Tool1:18:00

Mailman HQ: Batch the Release of Your Email

Lenny recommends Mailman HQ (mailmanhq.com), an app that shuts off your Gmail for periods of time so incoming mail is only released at times of day you choose. Instead of cutting email off entirely, it batches delivery — and he notes that just not knowing what's sitting in your inbox makes a big difference.

Mailman HQ shuts off Gmail for set periods and batches email delivery
You choose the times of day when email is allowed through
Not knowing what's in your inbox itself reduces the pull

“it's called mailman hq.com it shuts off your Gmail for periods of time”
1:18:00

#email#tools#focus

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway19:30

You Don't Have to Do All of It — One or Two Things Is a Win

A crucial reframe: you don't have to adopt everything, or even most of it. Finding just one or two tactics that make you slightly more productive each day makes a huge dent. Trying something that doesn't work isn't failure — you can delete an app and reinstall it later, and that's fine.

Adopting one or two tactics is enough to make a real difference
Not doing all of the advice is not failing
Experiments that don't stick can be retried later

“you don't have to do all of these things you don't even have to do like most of them if you just do like one…”
19:30

#habits#mindset#productivity

Takeaway64:30

The Important News Will Find You (and Read the Economist Weekly)

You are not actually responsible for staying constantly up to date. Really good or important news will reach you — people share it, or you'll get the big push notification. Echoing Tim Ferriss's 'wait for people to tell me what I need to know,' John gets news from his wife's end-of-day digest, and reads the Economist weekly precisely because its once-a-week cadence distills what actually mattered.

You don't have to monitor news in real time — the big stories reach you anyway
Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour Workweek idea: let others surface what you need to know
The Economist's weekly cadence rolls up and summarizes what actually mattered
Delete Twitter/LinkedIn for a week and you'll find you missed nothing that mattered

“people will share it with you or you know you'll hear about it if it's a really big news story you'll hear about it eventually”
65:00

“not only does it have this like really nice Cadence of once a week if something matters like it's going to get rolled up there…”
67:00

#news#attention#information-diet#tools

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Design Your Day (Calendar as Canvas + Groundhog Day Iteration)

Laser Mode: Engineering Speed Bumps Against Distraction

Make Time: Highlight, Laser, Energize, Reflect

Reflect: The Daily Experiment Loop

Reset Expectations + Slow Your Inbox

The Daily Highlight

The Five-Day Design Sprint

People & resources mentioned

People · 11

Resources · 45

Insights & moments

⚡Myth Buster· 1

What Most People Get Wrong About Productivity

◆Hot Take· 1

Willpower Never Wins — Build Speed Bumps Instead

✶Explainer· 3

The Busy Bandwagon and Infinity Pools

Attention Residue: The Static Your Apps Leave Behind

Reset Expectations, Slow Your Inbox, and the Power of 'Because'

❝Story· 3

The Authors Grade Their Own Productivity: 'A B-Minus'

The Sled Run: Ditching Your Highlight for the Moment That Actually Matters

Delete the Infinity Pools Off Your Phone — the Relief Is the Reward

✦Tool· 3

Cancel the Internet (Literally) for Deep Work

Sleep First, and Outsource Energy to a Personal Trainer

Mailman HQ: Batch the Release of Your Email

▲Takeaway· 2

You Don't Have to Do All of It — One or Two Things Is a Win

The Important News Will Find You (and Read the Economist Weekly)

Myth Buster· 1

Hot Take· 1

Explainer· 3

Story· 3

Tool· 3

Takeaway· 2