Lauren Ipsen (Daversa Partners, General Catalyst)03 November 2022

Lessons from one of the world’s top executive recruiters

7Frameworks

15Insights

Episode overview

Executive recruiter and General Catalyst talent leader Lauren Ipsen explains why founders should define the exact mandate and success criteria before hiring a senior product leader. She advocates continuously mapping the market, cultivating strong candidates long before a role opens, and relying on trusted networks and careful references instead of impressive logos alone. For candidates and recruiters, she emphasizes demonstrable impact, honest career narratives, broad experience, attentive relationship-building, and playing the long game.

Key ideas

Hire the person best suited to the company's specific role and stage, rather than automatically pursuing the market's most famous executive.
Define the product leader's mandate, near-term outcomes, 90-day expectations, and possible long-term evolution before beginning a search.
Maintain a continuous pulse on strong companies and people, and build advisory relationships with potential hires well before a vacancy exists.
Use trusted networks, market mapping, and references to distinguish standout operators from people who merely worked at prestigious companies.
Product leaders seeking broader leadership roles should develop experience across different product areas and be able to point to visible, referenceable impact.
Candidates should tell an honest, practiced career story without blaming cross-functional partners or concealing short tenures.
Recruiters should listen closely, remember candidates' circumstances, treat them as people, and build trust over time instead of behaving transactionally.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Leadership4 steps

Back-Channel Reference Digging

Trust peer back-channels over provided references, and probe harder than feels comfortable.

Read →

Leadership3 steps

Best-for-the-Role, Not Best-in-Market

Hire for the specific mandate at this specific stage, not the most impressive resume available.

Read →

Leadership4 steps

Define the Mandate Before You Search

Get granular on the outcome, spike, and 90-day plan before opening a product-leader search.

Read →

Self-Mastery4 steps

Leave It Better Than You Found It

Build career capital by making visible, others-verifiable impact — not by collecting logos.

Read →

Strategy3 steps

Market Map, Then Go a Layer Deeper

Start from the best companies for a skill, but never assume a great logo means a great individual.

Read →

Leadership3 steps

The Calibration Test for Recruiters

Vet a recruiter by testing whether they can play back your brief and name candidates on the spot.

Read →

Leadership4 steps

The Pre-Need Talent Pipeline

Build relationships with great people long before you have a role open, with no agenda.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 8

Lauren IpsenMentionsshe's placed over 80 senior product leaders across tech companies and has worked with some of the biggest companies out there
“today my guest is Lauren Ibsen”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Lauren IpsenMentionsshe's placed over 80 senior product leaders across tech companies and has worked with some of the biggest companies out there
“she's placed over 80 senior product leaders across tech companies and has worked with some of the biggest companies out there”
▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
Abe ShafiMentionswas tapped by a awesome individual Abe Shafi who was founding a company
“was tapped by a awesome individual Abe Shafi who was founding a company”
▶ Watch at ~7:00approx.
Gokul RajaramMentionsa tactic gokule shared on this podcast about one of his best tricks
“a tactic gokule shared on this podcast about one of his best tricks”
▶ Watch at ~31:30approx.
Alex StrandMentionsAlex strand is his name and he is just the most incredible atypical High emotional intelligent engineering leader
“Alex strand is his name and he is just the most incredible atypical High emotional intelligent engineering leader”
▶ Watch at ~34:00approx.
John KimMentionsI'll have a note on my calendar that John Kim's vest just happened in March
“I'll have a note on my calendar that John Kim's vest just happened in March”
▶ Watch at ~59:00approx.
Joe SulimanMentionsmy first boss out of college Joe Suleiman is awesome
“my first boss out of college Joe Suleiman is awesome”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:30approx.

Resources · 40

Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
RetoolRecommendssoftware · Retool
“that's why I'm such a big fan of retool and why I think retool is so popular”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
SnowflakeUsescompany · Snowflake Inc.
“snowflake saves about 26 hours a week of manual spreadsheet work with custom internal apps built on retool”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
RetoolMentionssoftware · Retool
“get started today at retool.com Lenny”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
NBCUsescompany
“thousands of teams at companies like coinbase doordash and NBC collaborate around custom-built retool apps”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
AmazonMentionscompany · Jeff Bezos
“Amazon uses retool to handle gdpr requests”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
DoorDashUsescompany · DoorDash
“thousands of teams at companies like coinbase doordash and NBC collaborate around custom-built retool apps”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
CoinbaseUsescompany · Brian Armstrong and Fred Ehrsam
“thousands of teams at companies like coinbase doordash and NBC collaborate around custom-built retool apps”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
MiroUsessoftware · Miro
“I actually use Miro to come up with a plan for this very ad”
▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
MiroMentionssoftware · Miro
“that's miro.com Lenny”
▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
PinterestMentionscompany · Pinterest
“I had applied to all of these different companies like Twitter and snap been Pinterest”
▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
RedditMentionswebsite · Steve Huffman, Alexis Ohanian, and Aaron Swartz
“was doing a lot of work with Twitter and Reddit and taskrabbit next door Postmates”
▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
NextdoorMentionscompany
“was doing a lot of work with Twitter and Reddit and taskrabbit next door Postmates”
▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
TwitterMentionswebsite · Twitter
“was doing a lot of work with Twitter and Reddit and taskrabbit next door Postmates”
▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
TaskRabbitMentionscompany
“was doing a lot of work with Twitter and Reddit and taskrabbit next door Postmates”
▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
SnapMentionscompany
“I had applied to all of these different companies like Twitter and snap been Pinterest”
▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
General CatalystMentionscompany
“General Catalyst tapped me most recently and been working here for the past couple months”
▶ Watch at ~7:30approx.
YouTubeMentionswebsite · Google
“if you want to find the cpos of Google and YouTube or what have you”
▶ Watch at ~10:00approx.
GoogleMentionscompany · Google
“if you want to find the cpos of Google and YouTube or what have you”
▶ Watch at ~10:00approx.
AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk
“that reminds me it was time at Airbnb where we had these meetups for engineers every month”
▶ Watch at ~26:30approx.
PostmatesMentionscompany
“you hire the VP of engineering at Postmates and you see firsthand the product change”
▶ Watch at ~33:30approx.
IRLMentionscompany
“favorite placement of all time has got to be the VP of engineering that I placed at IRL”
▶ Watch at ~34:00approx.
Amazon Prime DayMentionsevent · Amazon
“managed teams in the hundreds built out Amazon Prime day”
▶ Watch at ~34:30approx.
SnapchatMentionssoftware · Snap Inc.
“then went on to to build the core messaging platform at Snapchat”
▶ Watch at ~34:30approx.
VantaMentionssoftware · Christina Cacioppo
“over 3 000 fast growing companies use vanta to automate up to 90 of the work involved with sock 2”
▶ Watch at ~36:30approx.
VantaMentionssoftware · Christina Cacioppo
“just go to vanta.com Lenny”
▶ Watch at ~37:00approx.
NetflixMentionscompany · Netflix
“it worked at snap and Facebook and Netflix”
▶ Watch at ~40:00approx.
FacebookMentionscompany · Meta
“it worked at snap and Facebook and Netflix”
▶ Watch at ~40:00approx.
The Power of NowRecommendsbook · Eckhart Tolle
“The Power of Now and you are here”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
You Are HereRecommendsbook · Thích Nhất Hạnh
“The Power of Now and you are here”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
Your Own BackyardRecommendspodcast · Chris Lambert
“your own backyard because I went to Cal Poly so that one it's a little close to home”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
Cal PolyMentionsplace
“your own backyard because I went to Cal Poly so that one it's a little close to home”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
Top GunRecommendsfilm
“Top Gun I've watched too many times”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:30approx.
Top Gun: MaverickRecommendsfilm · Joseph Kosinski
“and the new Top Gun”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:30approx.
SpotifyUsessoftware · Spotify
“I mean I love Spotify straightforward”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
BeRealUsessoftware · BeReal
“I've been playing around on be real”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
StravaUsessoftware
“then I've been on Strava I've been running”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:30approx.
LinkedInUseswebsite · LinkedIn
“they can reach out to me on LinkedIn I happen to be on that one quite a bit”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:30approx.
Lenny's PodcastMentionspodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com”
▶ Watch at ~1:08:30approx.
Apple PodcastsMentionssoftware · Apple Inc.
“you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app”
▶ Watch at ~1:08:30approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take10:00

The Biggest Mistake Founders Make: Chasing Big Names

The most common error early founders make when hiring their first senior product leader is getting distracted by shiny objects and huge logos like CPOs of Google or YouTube. Those senior people are often far from the actual work and rely on a team of executors underneath them. Founders with limited resources should instead target someone closer to the work who can operate like a PM some days and lead on others.

Big-name executives are often far from the day-to-day work and depend on a team of executors
Early-stage companies with limited resources shouldn't chase brand recognition hires
Target someone who can both operate as a PM and build from a leadership perspective
Look for DNA, not just an impressive logo

“it's really easy to be distracted by shiny objects and look at huge names if you want to find the cpos of Google and YouTube…”
Lauren Ipsen · 10:00

“oftentimes those individuals are pretty far from the work and have a great team of executors that they've put into place that are actually the…”
Lauren Ipsen · 10:00

#hiring#product-leaders#founders#recruiting

Hot Take55:00

You Could Be the Chief Product Officer of Your Household

Wanting to be a "chief product officer" is meaningless without asking of what, since you could be the CPO of your household. Work backwards from a real goal, but don't let titles, valuation bubbles, or a shiny role at another company derail something that already feels good. If you're making an impact, learning, and excited, don't let an external title convince you your work isn't worthwhile.

"I want to be a CPO" is vague; of what, exactly?
Work backwards from a genuine goal, not from a title
Don't let titles or valuation bubbles derail a role that feels good
Impact, learning, and excitement matter more than a fancy new logo

“you could be the chief product officer of your household”
Lauren Ipsen · 56:30

“don't allow titles or valuation bubbles or other things to derail something that feels good”
Lauren Ipsen · 56:30

#career-advice#titles#goals#product-leaders

Explainer· 3

Explainer14:30

Nail Down the Mandate Before You Open a Search

Before kicking off a search, founders must get incredibly granular about what the person is coming in to do and what their mandate is. Too often boards push for a head of product without a clear reason, which dooms the search from inception. Define the outcome you're solving for, write the 90-day plan, and articulate what crushing it in the role actually looks like.

Work backwards from the actual outcome the hire is meant to solve
Don't hire a head of product just because the board says so
A search started without a clear mandate is doomed from inception
Define success: what does this person do in 90 days, a year, two years?

“so you need to get incredibly granular on the front end around what is this person going to be coming in to do what's their…”
Lauren Ipsen · 14:30

#hiring#search-process#founders#job-description

Explainer16:00

The Three Buckets of Product Leaders

Lauren buckets product leaders into three archetypes: platform leaders indexed on infrastructure, core/consumer product leaders (which can include UX and design), and specialists hyper-focused on growth or monetization. Founders get into trouble when they try to hire one person to do everything, which turns the role into a mythical unicorn. A clear org chart on the front end keeps the search honest.

Platform leaders index on infrastructure components
Core/consumer product leaders can include UX and design people
Specialists focus on growth, monetization, or a similar niche
Hiring one person to do everything creates an unhireable unicorn

“there's platform product leaders or folks that are kind of more indexed on the infrastructure components there's folks that are typically focused on like core…”
Lauren Ipsen · 16:30

#product-leaders#hiring#archetypes

Explainer49:30

The Resume Red Flag Worse Than a Short Stint

Recurring stints under a year are a red flag, but hiding those short stints from your resume is arguably worse. Because people fear the jumper narrative, they omit companies they didn't stay at for a year or claim they were "advising" when in reality they had two companies fail. Lauren's advice: be honest about your dates and tell your story with grace, because the omission itself is the bigger tell.

Recurring sub-one-year stints are a red flag, especially two or three times
Omitting short stints from a resume is almost more of a red flag than including them
People claim they were "advising" to hide companies that failed
Be honest about start and end dates; you can explain a bet that didn't work out

“people will often because they're so afraid of that narrative they'll often not include on their resume companies that they didn't stay for a year…”
Lauren Ipsen · 50:30

#resume#red-flags#career-advice#honesty

Story· 3

Story24:30

The Seven-Month Courtship of a VP of Engineering

At Daversa, the VP of engineering candidate they ultimately landed was a seven-month game of courtship rather than a formal interview process. They brought him in to advise, asked how he'd structure the org, and had him recommend other great talent. Skipping the transactional interview built a different level of rapport and trust, which is how you land incredible people.

Best hires can take many months of relationship-building, not a quick interview loop
Bring candidates in to advise and recommend talent before the formal ask
Avoiding a transactional process builds rapport and trust
Collaboration over formality is where the magic happens

“when I was on the executive recruiting side of things at diversa the VP of engineering candidate that we ultimately landed it was a seven…”
Lauren Ipsen · 24:30

#recruiting#hiring#long-game#story

Story26:30

Airbnb's Target-Engineer Tech Talk Tactic

At Airbnb, monthly engineering tech talks doubled as recruiting events: a target engineer would visit, and the existing engineers were given that person's profile and picture with the job of making sure they had a great time and convincing them to join. Lenny compares it to college sports recruiting trips. The target often had no idea, but the tactic worked great.

Monthly engineering tech talks were used as covert recruiting events
Existing engineers were assigned a target engineer to host and impress
It mirrors college sports recruiting visits
Staying top of mind and giving people a great experience worked

“all the engineers get a Target engineer that is coming to vent like they get their profile in their picture and their job is to…”
Lenny Rachitsky · 27:00

#recruiting#tactics#airbnb#story

Story33:30

Her Favorite Placement: Joining the Company Right Behind Him

Lauren's favorite placement of all time was Alex Strand, a rare high-EQ but still deeply technical engineering leader she placed at IRL. He'd built Amazon Prime Day and Snapchat's core messaging platform, and she convinced him to move in two weeks (though the start date ended up seven months out). She was so confident in the hire that she joined IRL herself to work alongside him, the ultimate stamp of confidence.

Alex Strand was an atypical high-EQ yet still very technical engineering leader
He'd built Amazon Prime Day and Snapchat's core messaging platform
She got him to decide to move in two weeks; the start date landed ~seven months out
She joined the same company to work alongside him as her ultimate vote of confidence

“favorite placement of all time has got to be the VP of engineering that I placed at IRL”
Lauren Ipsen · 33:30

“I don't know how much more confidence you could instill in a Canada joining company than the recruiter also then joining the company”
Lauren Ipsen · 35:30

#recruiting#placements#story#engineering-leaders

Tool· 1

Tool48:00

How to Actually Get Truth Out of a Reference Call

Provided references almost never come back negative, so you have to dig deep and ask hard questions: why would I not hire this person, what are their real weaknesses, would you hire or report to them again? Push past the canned "they work too hard" answer. Even the slightest pause is enough to make you think twice, so reading the room and probing harder than feels comfortable matters more than the words.

Provided references rarely come back negative; back-channels are a better source of truth
Ask: why would I NOT hire this person? What are their actual weaknesses?
Push past canned answers like "they work too hard"
Even a slight pause is a signal; read the room and probe harder than feels necessary

“why would I not hire this person what are their biggest weaknesses and then if they give you like the typical oh they work too…”
Lauren Ipsen · 48:30

“even if you just sense the slightest pause that in itself will be enough to to kind of make you think twice”
Lauren Ipsen · 48:30

#reference-checks#hiring#recruiting#tactics

Takeaway· 6

Takeaway12:30

"Best Talent" and "Best for This Role" Are Different Questions

A successful hire is about who is best for this specific role at this specific time, not who is the best talent in the market. Early in her career Lauren chased impressive executives to prove herself, but landing a whale doesn't mean that person can move the needle for the company today. The two questions are very different and conflating them dooms a search.

Ask who is best for THIS role at THIS time, not who is best in the market
Landing an impressive name is not the same as making an impact
The best talent in the world may not be the best talent for your company right now

“I would say the general advice is who is going to be best for this specific role at this specific time not necessarily who is…”
Lauren Ipsen · 12:36

#hiring#recruiting#product-leaders

Takeaway18:30

Head of Product vs VP vs CPO: When Titles Actually Matter

Startups are increasingly title-agnostic, with "head of" roles common up through C/D stage and VP/CPO titles appearing later at D and E. Unless it's a siloed company with multiple VPs, head of product, VP of product, and CPO generally mean the same thing depending on stage. Early-stage founders should start with head of product to avoid ever having to demote someone as the company scales.

Startups are more title-agnostic than in the past; "head of" roles dominate early
VP/director/CPO titles appear more at D and E stage
Head, VP, and CPO of product often mean the same thing depending on stage
Start early-stage roles as head of product so you never have to demote

“if you're coming into a company and they say this is the head of product the VP of product or the CPO that all means…”
Lauren Ipsen · 21:00

#titles#hiring#startups#product-leaders

Takeaway22:00

Keep a Pulse on the Market Before You Need to Hire

Whether or not you're actively hiring, you should always keep a pulse on the market so you know what good looks like. Founders should proactively meet great people with no agenda, get them involved in advising or the product before a specific need arises. Reaching out with genuinely no agenda makes people feel flattered and often eager to help.

Always know which companies are thriving and which individuals are building great things
Meet and involve great people before you have a specific opening
A "no agenda" approach makes people feel flattered rather than poached
Executives across the board are often glad for a conversation outside their day-to-day

“regardless of whether or not you're hiring you should always be keeping a pulse on the market that is the most important thing”
Lauren Ipsen · 22:00

“by simply saying No Agenda I'm not trying to hire you tomorrow I just want to know great people and to be totally honest people…”
Lauren Ipsen · 23:00

#networking#hiring#relationship-building#founders

Takeaway37:30

For PMs: Build Breadth, Don't Collect Logos

Product people aiming for leadership should prioritize breadth, touching many different components rather than specializing in one, unless they deliberately want to be a specialist. At the same time, logo collecting is a known red flag: recruiters are trained to spot candidates who jump from place to place without giving opportunities a full chance. But staying too long out of loyalty to a fault, past when the writing is on the wall, is its own trap.

Touch many components (platform, consumer, tools) to grow into a product leadership role
Specializing is fine if that's the deliberate goal
Logo collecting is a red flag; recruiters spot serial jumpers immediately
Being loyal to a fault and staying too long is also a mistake

“it's so critical especially if someone has an end goal of wanting to step into a product leadership role to have been able to have…”
Lauren Ipsen · 37:30

“logo collecting is never something that you you know want to be known for and the first thing you're taught like entry level recruiting 101…”
Lauren Ipsen · 41:00

#career-advice#product-managers#breadth#resume

Takeaway43:00

Leave Every Company Better Than You Found It

The tech world is tiny and people are constantly calling each other for references, so no matter how fired up you were leaving, it's critical to leave a place better than you found it. If a recruiter calls ten people from your org and none can speak to what you did, no news is not good news. You want a meaningful impact that others can point to.

Tech is small; people back-channel constantly regardless of how you leave
Leave every place better than you found it, seamlessly
If ten colleagues can't name your impact, that silence counts against you
Impact must be visible to others, not just something you're privately proud of

“no matter how fired up you were leaving a company or what went sideways it is so critical that you try to leave the place…”
Lauren Ipsen · 44:30

“if I call 10 people that were a part of the same organization as someone during a given period of time and they can't speak…”
Lauren Ipsen · 44:30

#career-advice#impact#references#reputation

Takeaway57:30

What Recruiters Get Wrong: Forgetting They're Human Beings

Recruiters earn their reputation by forgetting that candidates are human beings with lives, families, and ambitions outside their careers. Transactional recruiting, like pushing crypto roles on someone who said they never want one, or hitting up a candidate right before a vesting date they told you about, is tone-deaf. Start with a relationship, take notes, and remember that once you lose a candidate's trust it's impossible to get back.

Treat candidates as humans with lives and ambitions outside work
Transactional outreach and ignoring what people told you is tone-deaf
Take notes so you don't push crypto roles on someone who rejected them
Once you lose a candidate's trust, it's impossible to get it back

“there's naturally people that forget that these are human beings that we're dealing with every single day that have lives have families have careers or…”
Lauren Ipsen · 57:30

“once you lose trust in a candidate it's impossible to get it back”
Lauren Ipsen · 1:00:00

#recruiting#relationship-building#trust#long-game

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Back-Channel Reference Digging

Best-for-the-Role, Not Best-in-Market

Define the Mandate Before You Search

Leave It Better Than You Found It

Market Map, Then Go a Layer Deeper

The Calibration Test for Recruiters

The Pre-Need Talent Pipeline

People & resources mentioned

People · 8

Resources · 40

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 2

The Biggest Mistake Founders Make: Chasing Big Names

You Could Be the Chief Product Officer of Your Household

✶Explainer· 3

Nail Down the Mandate Before You Open a Search

The Three Buckets of Product Leaders

The Resume Red Flag Worse Than a Short Stint

❝Story· 3

The Seven-Month Courtship of a VP of Engineering

Airbnb's Target-Engineer Tech Talk Tactic

Her Favorite Placement: Joining the Company Right Behind Him

✦Tool· 1

How to Actually Get Truth Out of a Reference Call

▲Takeaway· 6

"Best Talent" and "Best for This Role" Are Different Questions

Head of Product vs VP vs CPO: When Titles Actually Matter

Keep a Pulse on the Market Before You Need to Hire

For PMs: Build Breadth, Don't Collect Logos

Leave Every Company Better Than You Found It

What Recruiters Get Wrong: Forgetting They're Human Beings

Hot Take· 2

Explainer· 3

Story· 3

Tool· 1

Takeaway· 6