Uri Levine (co-founder of Waze)09 June 2024

Lessons from a two-time unicorn builder, 50-time startup advisor, and 20-time company board member

7Frameworks

15Insights

Episode overview

Lenny Rachitsky interviews Waze co-founder Uri Levine about building startups by falling in love with a meaningful problem rather than a proposed solution. Levine explains how repeated user observation and retention-driven iteration led Waze toward product-market fit, and why startup phases require sharply different priorities. They also cover fundraising storytelling, making difficult personnel decisions quickly, learning from failed users, and treating failure as an essential part of experimentation.

Key ideas

Start with a significant problem you personally care about, validate it with people beyond friends and family, and only then build a solution.
Retention is the clearest product-market-fit signal: customers return when a product consistently creates value.
Failing fast enables more experiments, while iterative improvement can turn an initially inadequate product into one that is good enough to win.
Startup phases demand sequential focus: first product-market fit, then growth and the business model in an order suited to the product's usage frequency.
Fundraising pitches should open and close with their strongest point because first impressions form quickly and those slides remain visible longest.
Thirty days after each hire, ask whether you would hire that person again knowing what you now know; act decisively on the answer.
Observe users directly, especially people who abandon the funnel, and ask why their behavior differs from what the product team expected.
Designing for the early majority requires simplicity because product builders often cannot intuit the needs and anxieties of less adventurous users.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Entrepreneurship4 steps

Fall in Love with the Problem

Start every venture with a validated problem, not a solution, so the problem becomes your North Star.

Read →

Strategy4 steps

Product-Market Fit = Retention

There is one metric for product-market fit: do customers come back?

Read →

Leadership4 steps

The 30-Day Keeper Test

Calendar every new hire 30 days out and ask: knowing what I know now, would I hire this person?

Read →

Communication4 steps

The Dance of 100 Nos — Fundraising Storytelling

Investors decide in seconds and 1% say yes — so lead with your strongest point and tell an emotional, detailed story.

Read →

Strategy4 steps

The Four Phases of Focus

Do one thing at a time — idea, PMF, then either growth or business model — and shift gears cleanly.

Read →

Innovation4 steps

Understand Users by Watching Failures in the Funnel

Watch real users, and interview the ones who failed in your funnel — they know what you need to fix.

Read →

Marketing4 steps

Win the Early Majority with Simplicity

Market leaders are won in the change-averse early majority — and the only lever is simplicity.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 12

Uri LevineMentionsAuthor and startup founder associated with the principle of falling in love with the problem rather than the solution.
“URI is the co-founder of ways and nine other companies”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“today my guest is URI LaVine”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Ben HorowitzMentionsBen is the Z in A16Z, the world's largest venture capital firm with over $46 billion in committed capital.
“Ben horid Ben horvit from a recent horvitz Venture Capital firm and before that he used to be a CEO”
▶ Watch at ~15:30approx.
Albert EinsteinMentionsThere's that great Einstein quote about insanity being repeating things that you're doing, expecting a different outcome.
“Albert einin used to say that if you haven't failed that because you haven't tried new things before”
▶ Watch at ~16:30approx.
Michael JordanMentionsMichael Jordan used to say that you know I've failed over and over and over and over again
“Michael Jordan used to say that you know I've failed over and over and over and over again”
▶ Watch at ~16:30approx.
Stephen CurryMentionsif you have one shot and you're are not Steph carry you are very likely to miss
“if you have one shot and you're are not Steph carry you are very likely to miss”
▶ Watch at ~17:30approx.
Elon MuskMentionsWhether you like him or not, Elon, this is similar to his um if you watch him, he has sets these really ambitious goals
“Elon when he hated traffic he built like the boring company and built tunnels underneath underground”
▶ Watch at ~28:00approx.
Elizabeth StoneMentionsElizabeth Stone on her podcast with you talked a lot about her sort non-traditional background for a CTO
“Elizabeth Stone from Netflix the CTO of Netflix”
▶ Watch at ~58:30approx.
Steve WozniakCoinedSteve WN co-founder of Apple wrote the forward to my book
“Steve WN co-founder of Apple wrote the forward to my book”
▶ Watch at ~1:04:30approx.
Leonardo da VinciMentionsLeonardo D Vinci say that Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication
“Leonardo D Vinci say that Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication”
▶ Watch at ~1:10:00approx.
Geoffrey MooreMentionsJeffrey is the author of maybe the most influential and important book on go to market ever written crossing the chasm
“we had Jeffrey Moore in the podcast and he talked through a lot of this stuff”
▶ Watch at ~1:11:00approx.
Marc RandolphCoinedMark Randolf of Netflix uh that will never work
“Mark Randolf of Netflix uh that will never work”
▶ Watch at ~1:15:30approx.

Resources · 31

Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the SolutionCoinedbook · Uri Levine
“he wrote a book that summarizes all of his advice for Founders called fall in love with the problem not the solution”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
WazeCoinedsoftware · Uri Levine and co-founders
“you've also built two unicorns including ways which you sold for over a billion dollars”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
VantaMentionssoftware · Christina Cacioppo
“this episode is brought to you by vanta”
▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
MercuryUsescompany · Mercury
“I've been a super happy customer Mercury for over a year now”
▶ Watch at ~8:00approx.
iPhoneMentionsproduct · Apple
“one of the most successful products in the world the iPhone”
▶ Watch at ~10:00approx.
WhatsAppUsessoftware · Meta
“from searching Google using ways WhatsApp Facebook Netflix Uber whatever it is”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
WazeUsessoftware · Uri Levine and co-founders
“we're using ways today the same way that we used ways for the first time in our life”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
Google SearchUsessoftware · Google
“we are searching Google today the same way that we search Google for the first time in our life”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
FacebookUsescompany · Meta
“from searching Google using ways WhatsApp Facebook Netflix Uber whatever it is”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
NetflixUsescompany · Netflix
“from searching Google using ways WhatsApp Facebook Netflix Uber whatever it is”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
UberUsescompany · Uber
“from searching Google using ways WhatsApp Facebook Netflix Uber whatever it is”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
MicrosoftMentionscompany · Bill Gates and Paul Allen
“for Microsoft it was 5 years for Netflix it was 10 years”
▶ Watch at ~20:00approx.
ChatGPTMentionssoftware · OpenAI
“today is very different chat GPT just started a year ago no they are seven years old”
▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
IsraelMentionsplace
“we started in Israel and Israel is a small place and we ended up with uh being very successful in Israel”
▶ Watch at ~22:00approx.
JapanMentionsplace
“Japan is a very good example where it didn't work and it will never work”
▶ Watch at ~24:30approx.
The Boring CompanyCoinedcompany · Elon Musk
“Elon when he hated traffic he built like the boring company and built tunnels underneath underground”
▶ Watch at ~28:00approx.
CensusMentionscompany
“two of my portfolio companies webflow and census are LinkedIn success stories”
▶ Watch at ~38:30approx.
LinkedInMentionswebsite · LinkedIn
“that place exists and it's called LinkedIn”
▶ Watch at ~38:30approx.
WebflowMentionssoftware · Webflow
“two of my portfolio companies webflow and census are LinkedIn success stories”
▶ Watch at ~38:30approx.
NetflixMentionscompany · Netflix
“Elizabeth Stone from Netflix the CTO of Netflix”
▶ Watch at ~58:30approx.
iPhoneUsesproduct · Apple
“I took up my iPhone and with the iPhone you can take pictures”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
SalesforceMentionscompany · Salesforce
“if you have salesforce.com which is absolutely amazing their reaction is going to be what's wrong with Excel”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:00approx.
Microsoft ExcelMentionssoftware · Microsoft
“their reaction is going to be what's wrong with Excel”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:00approx.
That Will Never WorkRecommendsbook · Marc Randolph
“Mark Randolf of Netflix uh that will never work”
▶ Watch at ~1:15:30approx.
Atomic HabitsRecommendsbook · James Clear
“Atomic habits getting habits in improving them measuring and improving is really really important”
▶ Watch at ~1:16:30approx.
PonteraMentionscompany · Uri Levine and co-founders
“one of them Pont helps people to retire richer”
▶ Watch at ~1:18:00approx.
Barnes & NobleMentionscompany
“the book Amazon Barnes and nobl uh are basically places that you can find it”
▶ Watch at ~1:20:30approx.
AmazonMentionscompany · Jeff Bezos
“the book Amazon Barnes and nobl uh are basically places that you can find it”
▶ Watch at ~1:20:30approx.
LinkedInUseswebsite · LinkedIn
“you can follow me on LinkedIn”
▶ Watch at ~1:21:00approx.
Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the SolutionRecommendsbook · Uri Levine
“the book is called fall in love with the problem not the solution”
▶ Watch at ~1:21:30approx.
Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny podcast.com”
▶ Watch at ~1:22:00approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster10:00

Solving a Problem Isn't the Only Way: The iPhone Had None

Levine pushes back on the idea that every startup must solve an existing problem. The iPhone is his counterexample: when it launched there was no problem to solve, because smartphones already existed and people were happy with them. Occasionally you invent something completely new, but solving a problem remains the simplest path to value.

When the iPhone started there was no problem to solve
Smartphones already existed and people were satisfied with them
Sometimes you invent something completely new instead of solving a problem
Solving a problem is still the simplest way to create value

“there was no problem when they started right there were smartphones and people were actually very happy with them”
Uri Levine · 10:30

#product#innovation#iphone#myth

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take28:30

Waze's Real Value Isn't Saving Time — It's Certainty

Levine reframes what Waze actually delivers. There are more traffic jams now than in 2007, so the real value isn't avoiding traffic — it's certainty. Drivers told him they don't want to change routes; they want to know exactly how long the trip will take. Removing uncertainty is worth more than saving time.

There are more traffic jams today than in 2007
The value people get from Waze is certainty, not avoided traffic
US drivers said they'd stay on their route but wanted to know the arrival time
Uncertainty reduction is a higher-value benefit than time saved

“it's not about avoiding traffic it's about creating certainty uncertainty is way higher value than saving time”
Uri Levine · 28:30

#waze#value-proposition#certainty#product

Hot Take48:00

Your Most Important Pitch Slide Is the First One

Levine's contrarian fundraising tactic: the most important slide isn't the one you obsess over — it's the very first slide, the intro title slide. It's displayed for the longest time while you say nothing, so it's exactly where your strongest point belongs (market size, the problem, whatever it is). The second most important slide is the last one — repeat the strongest point there too.

The first slide is on screen the longest, often in silence
Put your strongest point on the first slide, not just the company name
Start with your strongest point because investors decide fast
The last slide (usually 'thank you') is the second longest shown — reuse it

“most people are missing the most important slide of their presentation the most important slide of your presentation is the first slide”
Uri Levine · 48:00

“this is the place that you're going to put your strongest point”
Uri Levine · 48:30

#fundraising#pitching#presentations#tactics

Explainer· 5

Explainer09:30

How to Know a Problem Is Real: Talk to 20 Strangers

Levine's heuristic for validating whether a problem is big enough: get out of your comfort zone and speak with people you don't know, not just friends and family. If people say 'that's not the problem, the problem is...' and give their own description, you've found something real. Roughly 20 strangers is enough to validate.

Don't rely on close friends and family; talk to people you don't know
Speaking with ~20 strangers is enough to validate whether a problem is real
A telltale non-validation is people saying they 'know someone' with the problem
Real validation comes when people correct your framing of the problem

“if you actually speak with 20 people that you don't know you will get validated whether or not this problem is real or not”
Uri Levine · 10:00

#validation#customer-discovery#startups

Explainer20:30

Product-Market Fit Has Exactly One Metric: Retention

Levine reduces product-market fit to a single measure: retention. If you create value, customers come back; if they don't come back, you aren't creating value. He notes that once a company finds fit, the product basically stops changing, because you use Google or Waze the same way you did the first time.

Product-market fit's one metric is retention
Coming back = value created; not coming back = no value
Companies that never find product-market fit simply die
After fit, the product stops changing because it already delivers the value

“retention that's really simple if you create value they will come back if they are not coming back that means that you are not creating…”
Uri Levine · 20:30

#product-market-fit#retention#metrics#product

Explainer20:00

Product-Market Fit Takes Years — Even for ChatGPT

Levine points out that the long, invisible part of a company's life is the years spent reaching product-market fit before anyone hears of it. He cites 4 years for Microsoft, 5 for Netflix, and notes ChatGPT was seven years old when it broke out — it took about six years before most people heard of it. Creating value simply takes time.

The longest phase of a startup is figuring out product-market fit
Microsoft took ~4 years, Netflix ~5 years to reach fit
ChatGPT was seven years old when it broke out; ~six years before people knew it
Before fit a company is invisible; after fit it stops changing

“chat GPT just started a year ago no they are seven years old it took them six years until you heard about them for the…”
Uri Levine · 20:30

“so once a company figure out product Market feed they don't change the product anymore”
Uri Levine · 20:00

#product-market-fit#timing#patience#startups

Explainer43:00

Fundraising Is a 1% Game — Expect 100 Nos

Levine contrasts selling to customers (roughly 1 in 3 say yes) with raising from investors (about 1 in 100). You'll hear no 100 times before one yes, which is deeply discouraging but structural — a VC partner sees 100 to 200 companies a year and invests in one or two. Early-stage investors consistently told him they invest because 'I like the CEO, I like the story.'

About 1/3 of customers buy, but only ~1% of investors say yes
Expect roughly 100 nos before a single yes
A VC sees 100–200 companies a year and backs one or two
Early-stage investors decide on the CEO and the story, not facts

“what I heard was actually pretty consistent I like the CEO I like the story that's it I like the CEO I like the story”
Uri Levine · 43:00

“good story is not about facts it's about creating emotional engagement”
Uri Levine · 44:00

#fundraising#investors#storytelling#founders

Explainer1:08:30

Whoever Wins the Early Majority Wins the Market

Levine walks through the adoption curve — innovators, early adopters, then the early majority, about a third of the population and the group that decides market leadership. The early majority fears change, worries new tools are too complex, and doesn't want to feel like an idiot, so their instinct is 'what's wrong with Excel?' The answer is always simplicity: add features until people use them, then remove the ones they don't.

The early majority is ~1/3 of the population and decides who wins the market
They fear change and complexity: 'don't rock the boat'
They won't try things that risk making them feel like idiots
The solution is simplicity — strip out the features people don't use

“the one that wins the early majority wins the market”
Uri Levine · 1:09:00

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication”
Uri Levine · 1:10:00

#adoption#early-majority#simplicity#product

Story· 3

Story22:00

When Waze Went Global and It Just Wasn't Good Enough

Waze worked in Israel, so the team took it global at the end of 2009 expecting the same result — and it failed almost everywhere. It was only good enough in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Latvia, and Ecuador. They repeatedly went back to drivers, asked what didn't work, shipped the next version, were sure it would work, and were wrong — over a year of iterations before it started working in early 2011.

Waze succeeded in Israel then went global at the end of 2009
It was 'not good enough' in the US, Western Europe, Latin America, and Asia
It only worked in four places: Czech Republic, Slovakia, Latvia, Ecuador
More than a year of driver-feedback iterations before it started working in early 2011

“it was not good enough in the US it was not good enough in Western Europe it was not good enough in in Latin America…”
Uri Levine · 22:30

#waze#iteration#product#story

Story50:30

The Microwave Gift-Card Story: Details Make a Story Believable

Advising a gift-card startup whose founder's pitch fell flat, Levine coached him to tell a better story — a long, detailed account of a broken microwave that wouldn't fit back in the closet or the cabinet. He then told the exact same story to an investor as if it were his own; the founder later repeated it verbatim, and the investor was hooked. The lesson: details make a story feel real and authentic.

A flat pitch was fixed by adding a vivid, detailed personal story
The more concrete details, the more real a story feels
The same detailed story worked whether or not it literally happened to the teller
Watching and talking to real users gives you authentic stories to tell

“the more details people think that this is real right if there are no details then this is not real”
Uri Levine · 51:30

“one of the things that makes story authentic is details”
Uri Levine · 52:30

#storytelling#pitching#fundraising#story

Story1:04:30

The Wozniak Selfie: Watch Users, You Aren't Them

Levine tells how he took a selfie with Steve Wozniak using the iPhone's volume button, and Wozniak said 'finally' — someone using it the way he intended. The point: there's no right or wrong way to use a product, people use it differently than you do, and if you build for yourself you build the wrong product. The fix is to watch new users and, when they don't behave as expected, ask why.

Wozniak was delighted someone used the volume button as he'd intended
Different people use the same product in different ways — no right or wrong
Building for yourself alone means building the wrong product
Watch new users, and when they surprise you, ask why

“finally someone using it the way that I meant it to be”
Uri Levine · 1:05:30

“watch new users simp simply watch users and see what they're doing”
Uri Levine · 1:07:00

#users#product#user-research#story

Takeaway· 4

Takeaway03:30

Why Falling in Love With the Problem Beats Falling for the Solution

Levine argues that entrepreneurship is about value creation, and the simplest way to create value is to solve a real problem. When you fall in love with the problem, it becomes the north star of the journey, keeps you from deviating, and makes your story compelling enough that customers want you to succeed. Start with the problem, find who else has it, talk to them, and only then build a solution.

The problem serves as the north star, so you deviate less from the course
Start with a problem, ask who has it, and validate before building
If you're the only person on the planet with the problem, that's a therapist's job, not a startup
A problem-first story makes customers want you to succeed

“the problem is going to serve as the north star of your journey and when you have a North star you're going to make less…”
Uri Levine · 04:00

“if you happen to be the only person on the planet with this problem I can recommend you a therapist don't build a startup”
Uri Levine · 05:00

#startups#problem#value-creation#founders

Takeaway15:30

Startups Are a Journey of Failures, So Fail Fast

Levine describes the startup path as a high-frequency roller coaster and, above all, a journey of failures: you try things that don't work until one does. If you're afraid to fail you've already failed, and failing fast leaves time for more attempts, which raises your odds of success. Good enough beats perfect.

The ups and downs of a startup come far more frequently than in normal business
If you're afraid to fail, you've already failed because you won't try
Fail fast to preserve time for more attempts and more shots at success
The biggest enemy of good enough is perfect

“oh yeah I slept like a baby I woke up every two hours and cried”
Uri Levine · 16:00

“the biggest enemy of good enough is perfect you don't need to be perfect you need to be good enough in order to win the…”
Uri Levine · 17:30

#failure#resilience#iteration#founders

Takeaway32:00

Word of Mouth Only Works With High Frequency of Use

Nearly everyone heard about Waze via word of mouth, but Levine warns that word of mouth is only available if your product has high frequency of use. A once-a-year product (like tax filing) only earns one recommendation opportunity a year; a daily product earns one every day. If frequency is low, you're sentenced to acquire users for your whole life and should nail the business model first.

Almost everyone heard about Waze through word of mouth
Word of mouth requires high frequency of use to compound
A daily-use product gives a recommendation opportunity every day
Low frequency means you must acquire users forever — fix the business model first

“so Word of Mouth even though that everyone would like that it's only going to happen if you have high frequency of use”
Uri Levine · 32:30

“if you're using ways every day then every day you have an opportunity to tell someone else”
Uri Levine · 32:30

#growth#word-of-mouth#frequency#retention

Takeaway56:30

The 30-Day 'Would I Hire This Person Again?' Test

Levine argues firing is the hard decision and hiring is the easy one, and founders fail by refusing to make hard calls — everyone knows within a month when a hire is wrong, yet nothing happens and the top performers leave. His fix: every time you hire, mark your calendar 30 days out and ask, knowing what you know now, would I hire this person? If yes, reward them; if no, fire them immediately.

Firing is the hard decision; hiring is the easy one
People usually know within the first month that a hire is wrong
If the founder won't make hard calls, top performers leave
Set a 30-day calendar reminder; if the answer is no, fire immediately

“mark your calendars for 30 days down the road and ask yourself one question knowing what I know today would I hire this person”
Uri Levine · 57:00

“if the answer is no fire them immediately”
Uri Levine · 57:30

#hiring#firing#management#team

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Fall in Love with the Problem

Product-Market Fit = Retention

The 30-Day Keeper Test

The Dance of 100 Nos — Fundraising Storytelling

The Four Phases of Focus

Understand Users by Watching Failures in the Funnel

Win the Early Majority with Simplicity

People & resources mentioned

People · 12

Resources · 31

Insights & moments

⚡Myth Buster· 1

Solving a Problem Isn't the Only Way: The iPhone Had None

◆Hot Take· 2

Waze's Real Value Isn't Saving Time — It's Certainty

Your Most Important Pitch Slide Is the First One

✶Explainer· 5

How to Know a Problem Is Real: Talk to 20 Strangers

Product-Market Fit Has Exactly One Metric: Retention

Product-Market Fit Takes Years — Even for ChatGPT

Fundraising Is a 1% Game — Expect 100 Nos

Whoever Wins the Early Majority Wins the Market

❝Story· 3

When Waze Went Global and It Just Wasn't Good Enough

The Microwave Gift-Card Story: Details Make a Story Believable

The Wozniak Selfie: Watch Users, You Aren't Them

▲Takeaway· 4

Why Falling in Love With the Problem Beats Falling for the Solution

Startups Are a Journey of Failures, So Fail Fast

Word of Mouth Only Works With High Frequency of Use

The 30-Day 'Would I Hire This Person Again?' Test

Myth Buster· 1

Hot Take· 2

Explainer· 5

Story· 3

Takeaway· 4