Phyl Terry (Author, “Never Search Alone”)12 September 2024

Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, and more

6Frameworks

14Insights

Episode overview

Phyl Terry explains how free Job Search Councils reduce isolation, create accountability, and support a product-style approach to finding work. He recommends establishing a narrow candidate-market-fit statement through a preferences exercise and listening tour, then updating the network as market conditions change. For interviews and negotiations, he advises drafting a private job mission with OKRs, validating it with the hiring manager, and collaboratively negotiating the resources and compensation needed to succeed. The conversation also explores asking for help as a sign of confidence, using trusted peers to debrief interviews, and staying close to the technology frontier.

Key ideas

Treat the job seeker as a product: research the market, clarify personal preferences, and iterate toward candidate-market fit.
A Job Search Council of six to eight peers provides emotional support, accountability, shared learning, and practical structure.
Use the Mnookin Two-Pager and listening-tour conversations—including reverse exit interviews, broader-network discussions, and recruiter feedback—to identify realistic opportunities.
Make the candidate-market-fit statement narrow and memorable—typically three or four attributes—because contacts can expand from a specific target more easily than reduce a broad one.
During interviews, privately draft a job mission with OKRs, use it to ask sharper questions, and validate it live with the hiring manager.
Negotiate collaboratively for the budget, staffing, mentorship, training, and other resources required to deliver the agreed outcomes before discussing compensation.
Ask for help after doing the homework, be candid about the request, choose trustworthy people, and seek perspective rather than asking someone else to do the work.
Maintain emotional balance through peer support, gratitude, interview debriefs, network updates, and recognition that job-market difficulty is not a verdict on personal worth.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Influence4 steps

Asking for Help Well

Ask for advice, not answers — the counterintuitive skill that separates who rises from who stalls.

Read →

Strategy4 steps

Candidate Market Fit

Position yourself as a narrow spear, not a net — three-to-four attributes the market actually wants.

Read →

Influence3 steps

Job Mission with OKRs (Play to Win)

Write your own version of the role with OKRs and share it with the hiring manager to win the offer.

Read →

Influence4 steps

The Four Legs of the Negotiation Stool

Negotiate the resources you need to hit your OKRs before salary, then ask 'are you open to?'

Read →

Self-Mastery3 steps

The Job Search Council

Run your job hunt as a committed 6-8 person peer group that flips anxiety into accountability.

Read →

Strategy4 steps

The Manukan Two-Pager & Listening Tour

Draft what you want and don't want, then run structured listening-tour conversations to find your fit.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 23

Phyl TerryCoinedPhil is the author of never search alone
“Phil is the author of never search alone”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Phyl TerryCoinedPhil is the author of never search alone
“Phil also co-authored customers included”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“Phil thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
Allison MnookinCoinedshe's now a professor at the Harvard Business School
“that's the manukan two-pager named after Allison manukan who was a member of one of our product councils”
▶ Watch at ~23:00approx.
Chris JonesMentionsmentioned
“I met him through Marty and Chris it's at Silicon Valley product group”
▶ Watch at ~46:30approx.
Marty CaganMentionsMarty has been helping product teams and product managers improve their craft processes and careers for over 20 years
“I met him through Marty and Chris it's at Silicon Valley product group”
▶ Watch at ~46:30approx.
Jason FriedMentionstoday my guest is Jason freed Jason is the co-founder and CEO of 37 signals
“Jason Freed's got this great thing where they have all very clear bands”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
Joe HudsonMentionsLenny introduces Joe as a sought-after executive coach to technology leaders whose work blends spiritual, psychological, and neurological practices.
“we had a really good episode I don't know if you saw with Joe Hudson”
▶ Watch at ~1:08:00approx.
Julia CameronCoinedmentioned
“I learned that tactic from uh Julie Cameron from the artist way”
▶ Watch at ~1:08:00approx.
Marissa MayerMentionsYahoo CEO when the company acquired Tumblr.
“when I started the the product councils Marissa Myer was a founding member”
▶ Watch at ~1:13:30approx.
Brad SmithMentionshe was a GM he became a CEO
“I can tell you about Brad Smith into it who set tled the stock price”
▶ Watch at ~1:17:00approx.
Ken ChenaultMentionsends up as a CEO and chairman of the board
“Ken Chanel an American Express joins in the 1980s”
▶ Watch at ~1:18:00approx.
Charlie MungerMentionsHis words and documents were assembled into Poor Charlie's Almanack.
“Charlie Munger who passed away last year that guy asked for help”
▶ Watch at ~1:18:30approx.
Warren BuffettMentionsWarren Buffett who's outstanding arguable genius
“if you Warren Buffett people think Warren Buffett only listens to himself at Charlie Munger”
▶ Watch at ~1:18:30approx.
Susan WojcickiMentionsReferenced as part of Google's leadership during its shift from traditional broadcast advertising toward YouTube.
“with Susan wijit Susan you know just passed away tragically absolutely fabulous person”
▶ Watch at ~1:22:00approx.
Sundar PichaiMentionsGoogle leader whom Benioff praises while discussing Google's AgentSpace.
“another director of product named Sundar Pai right who is now the CEO of Google”
▶ Watch at ~1:22:00approx.
Bradley HorowitzMentionsAnd there's also Bradley Horowitz, former VP of Google Photos.
“Bradley Horowitz joined Google in 2008 as director of product”
▶ Watch at ~1:22:00approx.
Jonathan RosenbergMentionsJonathan Rosenberg, he was the head of was the CPO at Google
“he had a weekly meeting with Jonathan Rosenberg who was the SVP of product”
▶ Watch at ~1:22:00approx.
Teresa TorresMentionspeople like Teresa Torres and others that have come up with a technique that is universal
“Teresa Torres was one of the moderators of our private councils”
▶ Watch at ~1:33:00approx.
Warren BuffettMentionsWarren Buffett who's outstanding arguable genius
“Warren Buffett is my mentor he just doesn't know it”
▶ Watch at ~1:35:00approx.
Steve JobsMentionsSteve Jobs is just uh the bar he held for the company and for technical talent and for excellence was not uh wavering.
“Steve Jobs is my mentor and when I talk about Mentor I don't mean just hey I'm a fan”
▶ Watch at ~1:35:30approx.
Marty CaganRecommendsMarty has been helping product teams and product managers improve their craft processes and careers for over 20 years
“I also of course I recommend Marty's books”
▶ Watch at ~1:39:30approx.
Robert StrasslerCoinedguy named Robert strassler who was a business guy
“guy named Robert strassler who was a business guy”
▶ Watch at ~1:45:00approx.

Resources · 44

Never Search AloneCoinedbook · Phyl Terry
“Phil is the author of never search alone”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
MicrosoftMentionscompany · Bill Gates and Paul Allen
“Phil and the team had companies like apple Facebook Microsoft and hundreds of other companies as customers”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
FacebookMentionscompany · Meta
“Phil and the team had companies like apple Facebook Microsoft and hundreds of other companies as customers”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
AppleMentionscompany · Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, and Ronald Wayne
“Phil and the team had companies like apple Facebook Microsoft and hundreds of other companies as customers”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Harvard Business ReviewMentionswebsite · Harvard Business Publishing
“has written articles for the Harvard Business review”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Never Search AloneRecommendsbook · Phyl Terry
“which I've seen so many people at reference as the most impactful thing they read for helping them find a job”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Creative GoodMentionscompany · Phyl Terry
“was CEO of the pioneering product and customer experience consulting firm creative good for over 15 years”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
AmazonMentionscompany · Jeff Bezos
“Phil was on the founding team of the first company that Amazon acquired back in the '90s”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Customers IncludedCoinedbook · Phyl Terry and Paul Ford
“Phil also co-authored customers included”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Job Search CouncilsCoinedother · Phyl Terry
“something that you created something that has had a lot of impact on a lot of people job search councils”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
SidebarRecommendscompany · Sidebar
“check them out at sidebar. comom Lenny”
▶ Watch at ~7:30approx.
SprigMentionssoftware · Sprig
“meet sprig a product experience platform that generates AI powered opportunities to continuously improve your product at scale”
▶ Watch at ~8:00approx.
SlackUsessoftware · Slack Technologies
“we've done a slack Community we have a matching program”
▶ Watch at ~9:00approx.
Job Search CouncilsUsesother · Phyl Terry
“we have launched more than 2,000 of these Lenny 2,000 and they're completely free”
▶ Watch at ~9:00approx.
ZoomUsessoftware · Zoom Video Communications
“the moderator pulls you together you work on Zoom or whatever technology”
▶ Watch at ~11:30approx.
LinkedInUseswebsite · LinkedIn
“I posted on LinkedIn today that I was going to be on your podcast”
▶ Watch at ~12:30approx.
The Mnookin Two-PagerCoinedtool · Allison Mnookin and Phyl Terry
“that's the manukan two-pager named after Allison manukan who was a member of one of our product councils”
▶ Watch at ~23:00approx.
The Mnookin Two-PagerUsestool · Allison Mnookin and Phyl Terry
“what do you like what don't you like and you share you create it and then you share it your Council”
▶ Watch at ~23:30approx.
Harvard Business SchoolMentionsplace
“she's now a professor at the Harvard Business School”
▶ Watch at ~23:30approx.
Apple TV+Mentionsproduct · Apple
“they decided they wanted to go work for a company like Netflix or Apple TV”
▶ Watch at ~38:30approx.
NetflixMentionscompany · Netflix
“they decided they wanted to go work for a company like Netflix or Apple TV”
▶ Watch at ~38:30approx.
37signalsMentionscompany · Jason Fried and co-founders
“Jason Freed's got this great thing where they have all very clear bands 37 signals”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.link ↗
BasecampMentionssoftware · 37signals
“well at base camp he's like because no one's trained in negotiation”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
DovetailMentionssoftware · Dovetail
“this is where dovetail comes in dovetail is the AI first customer insights Hub”
▶ Watch at ~1:04:00approx.
The Artist's WayRecommendsbook · Julia Cameron
“I learned that tactic from uh Julie Cameron from the artist way she recommends that”
▶ Watch at ~1:08:00approx.
IntuitMentionscompany
“Brad Smith into it who set tled the stock price there”
▶ Watch at ~1:17:00approx.
American ExpressMentionscompany
“Ken Chanel an American Express joins in the 1980s”
▶ Watch at ~1:18:00approx.
ChatGPTUsessoftware · OpenAI
“I teach people how to use chat GPT with some communication models to help you with that email”
▶ Watch at ~1:20:00approx.
YahooMentionscompany
“so he come from Yahoo there you know he was he was initially intimidated”
▶ Watch at ~1:22:00approx.
GoogleMentionscompany · Google
“Bradley Horowitz joined Google in 2008 as director of product”
▶ Watch at ~1:22:00approx.
Never Lead AloneCoinedbook · Phyl Terry
“that's all my next book about never lead alone”
▶ Watch at ~1:25:00approx.
eBayMentionscompany · eBay
“he was actually a client of mine when he was at eBay”
▶ Watch at ~1:31:00approx.
Silicon Valley Product GroupCoinedcompany · Marty Cagan
“he started the Silicon Valley product group”
▶ Watch at ~1:31:30approx.
Reading OdysseyCoinedcompany · Phyl Terry
“I also run something called the reading Odyssey which is a partnership between Scholars and and readers”
▶ Watch at ~1:34:00approx.
Slow Art DayCoinedevent · Phyl Terry
“I started compan something called slow art day right which has now been in 1500 museums around the world”
▶ Watch at ~1:37:00approx.
Creative DestructionRecommendsbook
“right now what I recommend is creative destruction”
▶ Watch at ~1:38:30approx.
The ManualRecommendsbook · Epictetus
“the last book I'll recommend is the manual it's a short introduction to stoicism”
▶ Watch at ~1:40:00approx.
Women in BlueRecommendstv show
“it's about the first women recruited onto the police force of Mexico City in 1971 or two”
▶ Watch at ~1:41:00approx.
Ted LassoRecommendstv show · Bill Lawrence, Jason Sudeikis, Brendan Hunt, and Joe Kelly
“Ted lasso Ted lasso thank you so the kindness in there”
▶ Watch at ~1:42:00approx.
Inside OutRecommendsfilm · Pixar Animation Studios
“the Inside Out movies the the second one came out this summer just the way it's normalizing emotions”
▶ Watch at ~1:42:00approx.
Landmark HerodotusRecommendsbook · Robert Strassler
“if you do Landmark Herodotus or Landmark the cities either one you'll get you'll get there”
▶ Watch at ~1:47:00approx.
The Landmark ThucydidesRecommendsbook · Robert Strassler
“if you do Landmark Herodotus or Landmark the cities either one you'll get you'll get there”
▶ Watch at ~1:47:00approx.
phil.orgRecommendswebsite · Phyl Terry
“go to phil.org and sign up for a job search Council”
▶ Watch at ~1:48:00approx.
Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenp podcast.com”
▶ Watch at ~1:51:00approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 2

Myth Buster20:30

Getting Downgraded Isn't Personal — It's the Marketplace

Phil reframes the pain of a down market as a supply-and-demand fact, not a verdict on your worth. With layoffs flooding tech, a director who could have landed a VP role two years ago may now only get a senior-manager role — because VPs are taking director jobs. Understanding it as a market condition is what job seekers describe as a huge relief.

A glut of laid-off senior people pushes everyone's attainable role down a level
A director two years ago could get a VP role; today they might only get senior manager
It's a marketplace signal, not a personal statement about you
Seeing it as the market rather than a personal failing is a relief for job seekers

“it's not a personal statement about you it's the marketplace”
Phil Terry · 21:30

“is also a relief to know it's not about you”
Phil Terry · 21:30

#job-search#market-conditions#mindset#product

Myth Buster1:14:30

Asking for Help Is a Sign of Confidence, Not Weakness

Phil dismantles the belief that asking for help signals weakness. Done well, it both requires and builds confidence — and it's a giving activity, not a taking one, because people feel honored when someone who's done their homework asks for their perspective. He backs it with data: 85% of people who reach senior roles credit asking for help, and 85% of junior people say they're afraid to ask because they think it's weakness.

Asking for help requires confidence and strengthens it
Done well it's a giving activity — people feel honored to be asked
85% who reach senior roles credit asking for help; 85% of junior people are afraid to ask
Asking poorly (no homework, wanting others to do it for you) does backfire

“asking for help is not a sign of weakness it's a sign of confidence it both requires confidence and strengthens it”
Phil Terry · 1:15:00

“it's not a taking activity it's a giving activity if you do it well you're actually being giving to the people you ask”
Phil Terry · 1:15:00

#asking-for-help#leadership#mindset#career-growth

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take42:00

Get Close to the Technology Frontier — or Get Stuck

Phil's strongest career-strategy claim: proximity to the technology frontier determines your long-run opportunity. The closer you are, the more new jobs open to you; the further away, the worse off you'll be — even if a comfortable, better-sounding job tempts you in the short term. That's why he'd take an EVP down to an IC role to get closer to the frontier.

Closer to the technology frontier = more new jobs and opportunities
Further from the frontier = stuck over the long run
A better-sounding job away from the frontier is a short-term trap
Worth accepting a title downgrade to move toward the frontier

“the closer you are to the technology Frontier the more new jobs and opportunities there are the further you are from the technology Frontier the…”
Phil Terry · 42:30

#career-strategy#technology#hot-take#creative-destruction

Story· 5

Story04:30

The Method Was Born in Tough Markets — Starting With His Mom

Phil traces the whole never-search-alone idea back to 1960, when his newly-minted schoolteacher mother started a council of teachers that met for 50 years. When his father left in the mid-70s and his mom lost her tenure and had to become an entry-level teacher again, her support group held her hand through it — proving the method works precisely in hard markets.

His mother started a teachers' council in 1960 that met for 50 years until she died
In the mid-70s she was a single middle-aged woman with kids job-hunting in LA — a terrible market
Her support group carried her through having to take an entry-level teaching job again
The method comes out of tough job markets, not easy ones

“my mom was a newly minted Elementary School teacher and she put together a council of teachers that group met for 50 years 50 until…”
Phil Terry · 05:00

“it comes out of tough job markets absolutely yes starting with my mom”
Phil Terry · 05:30

#origin-story#job-search#community#resilience

Story09:00

2,000+ Councils, 100% Free, Funded by His Own Book Sales

Phil reveals the scale and economics of the program: more than 2,000 councils launched, entirely free and volunteer-driven, with 20,000 hours of volunteer work behind it. He funds the running costs personally, plowing back twice his book sales because technology and support still cost money.

More than 2,000 councils launched, completely free
20,000 hours of volunteer work already put in
Two times the book sales go straight into running the program
Volunteer-driven with a matching program, Slack community and live training

“we have launched more than 2,000 of these Lenny 2,000 and they're completely free completely 100% free it's volunteer driven”
Phil Terry · 09:00

“all of the books actually two times the book sales are going into running this”
Phil Terry · 09:30

#job-search#community#nonprofit#scale

Story38:00

The Media EVP Who Took an IC Role — and Transformed His Career

Phil coaches an EVP running the streaming side of an old-economy media company who saw the writing on the wall and wanted to move to a Netflix or Apple TV. The honest market read was brutal: top streamers didn't value his traditional-media background, so his real candidate market fit was an individual-contributor role. He took the demotion — and it transformed his career.

He came from a corner office with a limo and first-class travel
Top streamers didn't respect what he brought from traditional media
His honest candidate market fit was an IC role, not a leadership one
He'd never have accepted that alone — but it revitalized his trajectory

“if he had done this search alone he would not have done that but to his credit he decided to take that and it transformed…”
Phil Terry · 39:00

#career-change#job-search#humility#case-study

Story40:30

50 Interviews for a Role He Wasn't a Fit For

Phil tells the cautionary tale of a VP of product who insisted on landing a COO role the market kept telling him he wasn't ready for. He interviewed 50 companies over a year and a half; the 50th hired him, and ten days later the company collapsed in a massive fraud. The lesson: take a VP role now and earn the COO title from inside — the two-step strategy.

He ignored clear market feedback that he wasn't a fit for a COO role
50 interviews over 18 months; the 50th offer came from a company that went bankrupt in a fraud 10 days later
The viable path was a two-step strategy — grow into COO from a VP role inside a company
Fighting the market wastes time; sequencing the move works

“so he interviewed 50 companies right 50 can you imagine it took him a year and a half the 50th company hired it 10 days…”
Phil Terry · 41:00

#job-search#career-strategy#cautionary-tale#case-study

Story1:17:00

Brad Smith Lost $300M, Then Learned to Ask for Help

Phil recounts how Intuit's Brad Smith, as a GM, ran a project badly and lost the company $300 million. When leadership asked his lesson, he realized he'd been pigheaded and hadn't asked for help. He internalized it, joined a council, and went on to the CEO role, where the stock price rose sevenfold during his tenure.

As a GM he lost $300M on a project and thought his career was over
His takeaway: he was pigheaded and didn't ask for help
He internalized the lesson and joined a council
As CEO the stock price rose sevenfold during his tenure

“he ran a project and he didn't do it well he lost $300 million for the company he thought okay that's over”
Phil Terry · 1:17:30

“and he asked for help boom boom boom stock price goes up sevenx in his tenure”
Phil Terry · 1:18:00

#asking-for-help#leadership#case-study#resilience

Tool· 2

Tool1:38:30

Phil's Book Picks: Creative Destruction, Cagan, and Stoicism

In the lightning round Phil recommends a few books. 'Creative Destruction' (by a group of economists) is academic but essential for product people to grasp why innovation creates net new jobs. He tells listeners to read and reread Marty Cagan's books as if Cagan were their mentor, and recommends 'The Manual' (Epictetus's Enchiridion) as a short intro to stoicism — which, he stresses, means understanding your feelings, not repressing them.

Creative Destruction — academic but key to understanding why innovation nets more jobs
Marty Cagan's books — read and reread them as if he's your mentor
The Manual (Enchiridion) — a short intro to stoicism
Stoicism means understanding and accepting feelings, not repressing them

“right now what I recommend is creative destruction and I'm going to give your listeners the link to the right book is by a group…”
Phil Terry · 1:38:30

“the last book I'll recommend is the manual it's a short introduction to stoicism people misunderstand stoicism they think stoicism means repressing your feelings that…”
Phil Terry · 1:40:00

#books#recommendations#stoicism#product

Tool1:44:30

The Landmark History Books: Product Design Masterclass

Phil's 'favorite product' is a book series. Robert Strassler reinvented the history book format over a decade — 120 hand-drawn maps each relevant to the adjacent pages, plain-English margin summaries for every paragraph, and two-page expert appendices. He self-funded it after publishers refused, sold hundreds of thousands of copies, and disrupted the genre. Phil urges product people to study its usability and look outside the digital world for design inspiration.

Robert Strassler spent 10+ years reinventing the history-book format
120 hand-drawn maps, plain-English margin summaries, two-page expert appendices
Publishers refused, so he self-funded it — then sold hundreds of thousands of copies
Phil tells digital product people to study its reader experience and seek inspiration outside the digital world

“there's a margin summary in plain English for each paragraphs describing what that paragraph just said”
Phil Terry · 1:45:30

“I want product people Lenny to get out who are doing digital work to get out of the digital world and look at products outside…”
Phil Terry · 1:46:30

#books#product-design#usability#inspiration

Takeaway· 4

Takeaway03:30

Everyone Feels Insecure in the Job Search — Even CEOs

Phil argues that fear and insecurity in a job search are universal, from junior applicants to CEOs of public companies. Doing the search alone magnifies that anxiety, while putting anxious people together and asking them to be open and vulnerable flips the fear into motivation and confidence.

No one is immune — even the most senior Silicon Valley leaders feel anxious job hunting
Searching alone magnifies the fear
Grouping anxious people and asking them to be vulnerable flips anxiety into hope, accountability and confidence
The dynamic is baked into human psychology, not a trick he invented

“everyone no matter who they are Lenny feels insecure and anxious in the job circuit and if you do it alone it magnifies it”
Phil Terry · 03:30

“if you put anxious people together and ask them to be open and vulnerable and to ask for help we'll come back to asking for…”
Phil Terry · 04:00

#job-search#psychology#confidence#community

Takeaway31:30

Be a Spear, Not a Net: Why Narrow Wins

Phil pushes back on the instinct to keep your search broad so you 'don't miss opportunities.' A narrow, specific pitch actually widens your reach because people can be expansive from a sharp statement but never reductive from a vague one. Say 'any product job' and no one remembers you; say something precise and people connect adjacent opportunities to you.

A broad net lets everything slip through; a spear is specific and lands
People can extrapolate outward from a narrow, concrete statement
No one gets specific for you from a vague 'I'll take anything' pitch
Narrowing feels risky but actually makes you more memorable and referable

“when you're looking for a job you need a spear and not a net”
Phil Terry · 32:00

“you're not going to be reductive from a broad statement but you will be expansive from a narrow”
Phil Terry · 32:30

#job-search#positioning#focus#product

Takeaway54:00

Negotiate for What You Need to Succeed — and 87% Get More Money

Phil's non-adversarial negotiation move: before talking salary, ask for the resources you'll need to hit the OKRs you've agreed on — like a check to clear tech debt on day one. Two CPOs faced tech debt (one $20M, one $10M); the one who asked got the check, cleared it, and was on a CEO track two years later, while the one who stayed shy was job-hunting 18 months on. If a company balks at these asks, that's a red flag. And when you do ask for more pay, historically 87% get it.

Ask for resources tied to the OKRs you've agreed on, not against the company
Two CPOs faced tech debt; the one who negotiated a day-one check got promoted toward CEO, the shy one was job-hunting 18 months later
A company that resists these asks is a red flag — they aren't serious
87% of the time (long-run data) asking for more money gets you more, though the market is tighter now

“I will tell you what if the company doesn't like this it's a huge red flag huge red flag it means they're not serious”
Phil Terry · 57:00

“87% of the time Lenny when you ask for more money you get it”
Phil Terry · 1:00:00

#negotiation#compensation#okrs#job-offer

Takeaway1:43:30

The Reference-Check Question That Cuts Through the BS

Phil shares the best thing he learned in two years at Harvard Business School: a reference-check trick. Leave a voicemail or email saying you're about to hire someone, that it would be a huge mistake not to, and ask the person to call back only if they think the candidate is amazing. The silence when they don't call back tells you everything — and it sidesteps the legal caution that neuters normal references.

Say you're about to hire the person and it'd be a huge mistake not to
Ask the reference to call back only if they think the candidate is amazing
Not hearing back is itself the signal
It bypasses the legal caution that makes standard references useless
Works as a back-channel move before accepting an offer too

“I'm about to hire Lenny okay if it would be a huge mistake if I didn't bring him on if you think he's amazing then…”
Phil Terry · 1:43:30

#hiring#references#interviewing#tactics

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Asking for Help Well

Candidate Market Fit

Job Mission with OKRs (Play to Win)

The Four Legs of the Negotiation Stool

The Job Search Council

The Manukan Two-Pager & Listening Tour

People & resources mentioned

People · 23

Resources · 44

Insights & moments

⚡Myth Buster· 2

Getting Downgraded Isn't Personal — It's the Marketplace

Asking for Help Is a Sign of Confidence, Not Weakness

◆Hot Take· 1

Get Close to the Technology Frontier — or Get Stuck

❝Story· 5

The Method Was Born in Tough Markets — Starting With His Mom

2,000+ Councils, 100% Free, Funded by His Own Book Sales

The Media EVP Who Took an IC Role — and Transformed His Career

50 Interviews for a Role He Wasn't a Fit For

Brad Smith Lost $300M, Then Learned to Ask for Help

✦Tool· 2

Phil's Book Picks: Creative Destruction, Cagan, and Stoicism

The Landmark History Books: Product Design Masterclass

▲Takeaway· 4

Everyone Feels Insecure in the Job Search — Even CEOs

Be a Spear, Not a Net: Why Narrow Wins

Negotiate for What You Need to Succeed — and 87% Get More Money

The Reference-Check Question That Cuts Through the BS

Myth Buster· 2

Hot Take· 1

Story· 5

Tool· 2

Takeaway· 4