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17 December 2023

Jason Fried challenges your thinking on fundraising, goals, growth, and more

7Frameworks
15Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 8

Hot Take00:00

Almost Nobody Actually Makes It The Venture Way

Jason Fried pushes back on the industry default of 'go big or go home, raise a bunch of money, get to unicorn status.' He argues that path succeeds for almost nobody, and that once you throw out that outlier, there's enormous room to build a successful business by landing somewhere in the vast space between small shop and mega-unicorn.

  • The 'raise money and get huge' path works for almost nobody
  • Bootstrapping is presented as a legitimate alternative, not a prescription for everyone
  • There's far more room to succeed if you stop chasing the single outlier outcome

there's a lot more room to make it and to build a successful business if you throw out that outlier and look at all the…

Jason Fried · 00:00

it's an alternative to what you're often Hearing in our industry which is like go big or go home raise a bunch of money and…

Jason Fried · 00:00
#bootstrapping#venture-capital#startups#contrarian
Hot Take07:00

Your Startup Is Probably Not Venture Scale

Fried argues most software businesses simply don't need outside capital: you need a couple of laptops and a couple of people, and the margins should be close to 80–90%. Real capital needs come from physical requirements like factories, ovens, or hardware. He contends that taking venture money when you don't need it actually hurts you by forcing a single 'go huge' outcome.

  • Software is cheap to start and should carry 80-90% margins
  • Capital is genuinely needed only for physical requirements (factories, restaurants, hardware)
  • Silicon Valley turned the most profitable business model into the least profitable one
  • Venture backing collapses your options down to one outcome: go huge or wither

your startup is probably not Venture scale just trying to convince people like you may have a really good idea but it doesn't mean it's…

Jason Fried · 07:00

what's interesting is that Silicon Valley has found a way to make the most profitable style of business the least profitable

Jason Fried · 08:00
#venture-capital#software-margins#bootstrapping#fundraising
Hot Take10:00

Why A Small Team Beats Competitors With Thousands

Comparing 37signals' ~75 people to competitors with 1,500–3,000 employees at similar customer counts, Fried explains the difference is focus on efficiency over growth. One product, one codebase, a hard price cap (nobody pays more than $299 for Basecamp), and no sales team keep support costs and organizational complexity low. He argues constraints and simplicity, not headcount, are where great work comes from.

  • Competitors run 1,500-3,000 employees at similar customer counts
  • One price cap ($299) and one codebase avoid enterprise complexity and support costs
  • No salespeople, no tiered enterprise versions
  • Spending money just because you have it is a Silicon Valley habit to avoid

so we think that constraints Simplicity small teams actually are where it's at and and keep us honest and allow us to do great work…

Jason Fried · 12:30

if you gave me a thousand people I wouldn't know what to do with them we would we would fall apart

Jason Fried · 13:00
#small-teams#efficiency#constraints#pricing
Hot Take17:00

Build A 'Stayup', Not A Startup

Drawing on the book Finite and Infinite Games, Fried argues the most joy comes from games that never end — building relationships and a company you want to keep working at forever. He's tired of 'startup' dominating the culture, because starting a business is the easy part. Staying is far harder, so he's here to celebrate 'stayups.'

  • Infinite games (never-ending) produce more joy than finite goals like selling or IPO
  • Starting a business is easy; staying in it for years is the hard part
  • He reframes 'startup' as 'stayup' to celebrate endurance
  • Same dynamic applies to newsletters and podcasts — easy to start, hard to sustain

like you get most joy out of things that neverend like building great relationships building a company you want to keep working at forever

Jason Fried · 17:30

staying is harder than starting and so I'm here to celebrate stayups

Jason Fried · 20:30
#infinite-games#entrepreneurship#endurance#philosophy
Hot Take38:30

Promises Are The Downfall Of Every Business

Fried says the act of promising a delivery date seems to cause the miss — as if something would have shipped on time had they not committed to it. His worst offender is the 'by the end of the year' promise, because the further out the date, the easier it is to make and the more likely you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

  • Making a delivery promise seems to make the work miss its date
  • 37signals learned to not promise anything, only share what they're working on
  • 'By the end of the year' is the most dangerous promise to make
  • The further away the deadline, the easier and more tempting it is to over-promise

promises are the downfall of every business like every time we've made a promise to get something out in a certain period of time like…

Jason Fried · 38:30

the worst promise and by the way we've we've made a couple of these recently we always regret them is like by the end of…

Jason Fried · 39:00
#promises#deadlines#product-management#shipping
Hot Take44:00

Everything Is A Judgment Call — Give Your Gut Credit

Fried admits he's never known how to make decisions by the numbers and believes everyone is actually intuition-driven. Data can be one input among thousands, but any human decision is ultimately a judgment call informed by absorbed experience. It's why companies hire executives for judgment and experience, not spreadsheet-reading, and why his teams ask 'what do you think?' and 'how does this feel?' rather than 'what do you know?'

  • Every human decision is a judgment call; data is just one of thousands of inputs
  • Executives are hired for judgment and experience, not for reading charts
  • Teams ask 'what do you think / how does this feel' over 'what do you know'
  • Humans are primarily feeling creatures, even if they won't admit it

I think everything's a judgment call

Jason Fried · 44:30

while we have a logical side to us and a rational side to us we're primarily feeling creatures

Jason Fried · 48:00
#intuition#decision-making#gut#management
Hot Take1:03:00

Long-Term Planning Is A Fantasy

37signals has no multi-year, one-year, or even six-month plan — they rethink what they're doing every six weeks and make it up as they go. Fried argues the further out you plan, the less you know about the decisions you're making, so by the time you arrive you'll likely be wrong or want something else. Locking in future obligations, he believes, sends people down a path of doing things they no longer want to do.

  • No multi-year, one-year, or six-month plan; horizon is six weeks
  • The further out you plan, the less you know about that decision
  • Future obligations push people to do things they no longer want to do
  • 'I don't plan long term because I want to do what I think, not what I thought'

we don't have a multi-year plan I don't even a one- year plan I don't even have a six-month plan

Jason Fried · 1:03:00

the further out you plan the less you know about the decisions you're making and by the time you get there you're probably going to…

Jason Fried · 1:04:30
#planning#strategy#long-term#contrarian
Hot Take1:09:30

Work Isn't War — Drop The Battle Metaphors

Fried finds the war vocabulary of business depressing: conquering markets, targeting customers, destroying the competition, making a killing. He argues the words you use establish how you think, and if your head is full of destruction language you'll end up in a dark place. He'd rather use additive words — just make something great — treating work as creation, not combat. (He also mocks the habit of looking to Navy SEALs to run a B2B software company.)

  • Business language is full of war metaphors: conquer, target, destroy, make a killing
  • Words shape how you think about your work
  • A destruction mindset leads to a dark place; creation is healthier
  • Reframe from 'beat them' to 'let's make something great'

that's how people talk about business I I find that to be depressing it just feels depressing to me

Jason Fried · 1:10:00

let's make something great not like let's beat them let's conquer them let's make a killing

Jason Fried · 1:11:00
#culture#language#work-philosophy#competition

Explainer· 1

Explainer1:23:30

Once: Betting On Pay-Once Software Over SaaS

Fried explains 'Once' — a product line of non-SaaS software you download, install on your own server, and pay for a single time with no recurring fees. The bet is that the SaaS-only pendulum will swing back amid subscription fatigue, since you keep paying the same monthly amount for software whose core hasn't changed in years. They target commodity categories still charging luxury prices, build each in ~three months with two people, and carry near-zero marginal cost since there's no hosting to maintain.

  • Download once, install on your own server, pay one time — no subscriptions
  • Thesis: subscription fatigue and a pendulum swing back from SaaS-only
  • Target commodity categories still charging luxury monthly prices
  • Built in ~3 months by two people with near-zero marginal cost (no hosting)

you keep paying the same amount every month for the thing that you had last month

Jason Fried · 1:24:00

they'll pay for it once and there's no subscription fees no recurring fees

Jason Fried · 1:24:30
#once#saas#pricing#product-strategy

Story· 3

Story05:30

37signals By The Numbers: 24 Years Profitable, No Investors

Fried lays out the scale of the business most people don't realize exists: profitable every year for 24 years, double-digit-million-dollar annual profits over the last decade, ~100,000+ paying customers, and only about 75 employees. There are no investors, no board, and no interest in the acronym metrics the rest of the industry obsesses over.

  • Profitable every single year for 24 years
  • Double-digit-million-dollar profits annually over the last ~10 years
  • 100,000+ paying customers with only ~75 employees
  • Ignores standard SaaS metrics; only cares about making more than they spend

we've been profitable every year for 24 years

Jason Fried · 05:30

it's like we just want to make more money than we spend have good healthy margins which allow us to sort of experiment and play…

Jason Fried · 06:00
#37signals#profitability#metrics#business-model
Story51:30

How Fried Interviews For Gut Instinct In Designers

For designer and product hires, 37signals has finalists complete a paid, week-long project. Fried then critiques it with them — pushing back even when he loves it — and asks what they'd do with another couple of days. He's watching where their gut goes when they have to riff on the spot, looking for candidates whose instincts overflow with ideas rather than academically 'correct' product people.

  • Finalists do a paid, week-long real project as the final interview step
  • Fried critiques it live and pushes back even on work he loves
  • The key question: 'if you had another couple days, what would you do?'
  • He's testing for gut and instinct — people whose ideas overflow on the spot

even if I love it I will push back in certain areas and one of the things I'll often ask is like if you had…

Jason Fried · 51:30

I'm still looking for people who who just their gut is filled with ideas

Jason Fried · 52:30
#hiring#design#interviewing#instinct
Story1:19:30

The RXBAR Lesson: 'Go Sell A Thousand Bars'

Fried recounts the story of RXBAR founder Peter Rahal, whose father — when Rahal was mulling raising money — told him to go sell a thousand bars and come back. The point cuts through all the possibilities that open up when you have cash: you have a product, go sell it. Fried uses it to illustrate that scrappiness comes from constraint, not from a large bank balance.

  • RXBAR founder's dad said to go sell a thousand bars before anything else
  • The advice cuts through the distractions that money enables
  • Scrappiness is forged by constraints, not by having lots of cash
  • Constraints ('we can't make payroll') force you to figure things out

hey go sell a thousand [ __ ] bars and come back and talk to me

Jason Fried · 1:20:00

you don't get scrappiness from having large s you just don't

Jason Fried · 1:20:30
#scrappiness#bootstrapping#sales#constraints

Tool· 1

Tool1:37:00

Jason Fried's Most-Recommended Books

In the lightning round, Fried names the books he recommends most: 'Several Short Sentences About Writing' by Verlyn Klinkenborg, an extraordinary book all about the sentence; 'Hell Yeah or No' by Derek Sivers, whose title 37signals uses internally as a decision filter; and 'Homemade: Contemporary Russian Folk Artifacts,' a collection of scrappy handmade objects that embodies the ingenuity he admires.

  • 'Several Short Sentences About Writing' by Verlyn Klinkenborg — on the sentence
  • 'Hell Yeah or No' by Derek Sivers — used internally as a decision filter
  • 'Homemade: Contemporary Russian Folk Artifacts' — celebrates scrappy ingenuity

pretty much anything by Derek sers but specifically hell yeah or no

Jason Fried · 1:38:00
#books#recommendations#writing#decision-making

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway14:30

Success Is Simply Wanting To Do It Again

For Fried, the root definition of success is whether he'd want to do it again — was it enjoyable and worthwhile. The business has no financial goals, no OKRs or KPIs, no revenue targets, and no customer-growth targets. The only number that matters is whether, collectively, they made more than they spent over the year.

  • Success = 'would I want to do this again?'
  • No OKRs, KPIs, revenue targets, or growth targets
  • No separate P&L per product; only total profit matters
  • Many worthwhile things (like saying thank you) can't and shouldn't be A/B tested

in total collectively are we making more money than we spend

Jason Fried · 15:30

we don't have we don't have financial goals we don't have okrs or kpis I don't have Revenue targets I don't have uh growth Targets…

Jason Fried · 16:30
#goals#metrics#success#management
Takeaway1:22:00

No One Ever Went Broke Making A Profit

Fried distills his entire business strategy: keep making great stuff, keep costs in check, charge appropriate prices, share as much as you can, and let the chips fall where they may. He credits the best business advice he ever got to his dad — 'no one ever went broke making a profit' — noting that plenty of companies go broke generating lots of revenue.

  • Strategy in a nutshell: make great work, control costs, price fairly, share generously
  • Enjoy it and build a great environment — it's baked into the strategy
  • Best advice from his dad: no one ever went broke making a profit
  • You can go broke generating revenue, but not by generating profit

just keep making great [ __ ] keep your cost in check charge appropriate prices for your work share as much as you can and let the…

Lenny Rachitsky · 1:22:00

no one ever went broke making a profit

Jason Fried · 1:23:00
#profit#strategy#advice#bootstrapping