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Ken Norton, Ex-Google24 July 2022

How to unlock your product leadership skills

4Frameworks
15Insights

Episode overview

Lenny Rachitsky talks with former Google product leader and executive coach Ken Norton about why senior leadership growth requires changes in mindset, not merely additional tactics and frameworks. Norton contrasts reactive leadership driven by fear, approval, correctness, or control with creative leadership grounded in openness, purpose, curiosity, and authentic strengths. They also discuss coaching, people-oriented leadership skills, imposter phenomenon, ambitious 10x bets, hiring product managers, and practical resources for continued development.

Key ideas

  • Product managers lead from day one without formal authority, making influence, communication, collaboration, and other people skills central to the role.
  • Executive coaching is a client-led creative partnership that uses listening, curiosity, intuition, and challenge to help people define and reach their own goals.
  • Senior leaders often need to redesign their internal meaning-making system because the approaches that produced earlier success may fail at higher levels of complexity.
  • Reactive leadership responds from fear and seeks approval, correctness, or control; creative leadership responds through openness, possibility, curiosity, passion, growth, and purpose.
  • Authentic leadership does not require copying a commanding archetype; leaders can direct their existing strengths toward purpose, vision, decisiveness, and long-term respect.
  • Imposter phenomenon can be addressed by identifying and distancing from inner critics, but leaders must also confront the bias and systemic conditions that reinforce it.
  • Organizations should preserve room for high-risk 10x ideas alongside core and adjacent work because breakthrough innovation requires permission to experiment and fail.
  • Hiring should test whether a product manager can perform effectively with the actual team and culture, rather than merely succeed in a highly structured interview process.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Innovation3 steps

10x vs 10% Thinking

Deliberately reserve space for moonshot bets instead of settling for safe incremental improvements.

Read →
Leadership4 steps

Creative vs Reactive Leadership Mindset

Lead from purpose and possibility instead of fear, and rewire the beliefs that keep you reactive.

Read →
Mindset3 steps

Inner Board of Directors (Parts Work for the Inner Critic)

Externalize your inner critic as a named board member you can appreciate, then ask to step aside.

Read →
Self-Mastery3 steps

The Three Reactive Postures

Identify which fear-driven posture you retreat into (complying, protecting, controlling) so you can redirect the gift beneath it.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 8

  • Ken NortonMentionsOver his 14-year career at Google, Ken Norton led product teams that built Google Docs, Google Calendar, Google Maps

    “Today, Ken is a full-time executive coach specializing at working with product leaders.”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    “Welcome to the podcast, Ken. I am so honored to have you here.”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
  • Brené BrownMentionsWhat Bnee Brown calls the midlife unraveling.

    “Brené Brown calls it daring versus armored leadership.”

    ▶ Watch at ~20:00approx.
  • Shreyas DoshiMentionsHe reflects on roughly 20 years in product work and leadership roles at Google, Twitter, and Stripe.

    “we talked about this with Shreyas”

    ▶ Watch at ~50:30approx.
  • Ruchika TulshyanMentionsmentioned

    “The two authors of that were Ruchika Tulshyan and Jody Ann Bury.”

    ▶ Watch at ~55:00approx.
  • Jodi-Ann BureyMentionsmentioned

    “The two authors of that were Ruchika Tulshyan and Jody Ann Bury.”

    ▶ Watch at ~55:00approx.
  • Richard SchwartzMentionsIt comes from a psychologist named Richard Schwartz

    “It comes from a psychologist named Richard Schwartz who determined this.”

    ▶ Watch at ~58:00approx.
  • Tom GeraghtyRecommendshas a newsletter about psychological safety

    “there's a guy named Tom Gerety who has a newsletter about psychological safety.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:15:30approx.

Resources · 28

  • AmplitudeRecommendssoftware · Amplitude

    “Try Amplitude for free. Just visit amplitude.com to get started.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • Lenny's JobsRecommendswebsite · Lenny Rachitsky

    “Check out Lenny'sjobs.com to learn more.”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
  • Google DocsMentionssoftware · Google

    “products that folks may have heard of, like Google Docs and Google Calendar and Google Maps.”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • Google MapsMentionssoftware · Google

    “products that folks may have heard of, like Google Docs and Google Calendar and Google Maps.”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • Google CalendarMentionssoftware · Google

    “products that folks may have heard of, like Google Docs and Google Calendar and Google Maps.”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • GoogleMentionscompany · Google

    “you spent 14 years at Google working on products”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • Leadership CircleMentionscompany

    “Leadership Circle calls it creative versus reactive and that's the term I'm going to use.”

    ▶ Watch at ~20:00approx.
  • UberMentionscompany · Uber

    “What did Gusto, Uber, Shopify, and AngelList all have in common?”

    ▶ Watch at ~39:00approx.
  • ShopifyMentionscompany · Shopify

    “What did Gusto, Uber, Shopify, and AngelList all have in common?”

    ▶ Watch at ~39:00approx.
  • GustoMentionscompany

    “What did Gusto, Uber, Shopify, and AngelList all have in common?”

    ▶ Watch at ~39:00approx.
  • AngelListMentionscompany · Naval Ravikant and Babak Nivi

    “What did Gusto, Uber, Shopify, and AngelList all have in common? They've all decided to build banking into their product.”

    ▶ Watch at ~39:00approx.
  • UnitRecommendscompany

    “visit unit.co/lenny to request a demo or to try their free sandbox.”

    ▶ Watch at ~40:00approx.
  • The 15 Commitments of Conscious LeadershipRecommendsbook · Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, and Kaley Klemp

    “The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership book is fantastic.”

    ▶ Watch at ~44:30approx.
  • Inside OutMentionsfilm · Pixar Animation Studios

    “have you seen the Pixar movie Inside Out?”

    ▶ Watch at ~58:30approx.
  • International Coaching FederationRecommendscompany

    “the International Coaching Federation is our governing body. So, those of us that are credential coaches, you'll find there.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
  • BetterUpRecommendscompany

    “There are some matchmaking services. BetterUp, Torch are some of the more accessible ones.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
  • TorchRecommendscompany

    “There are some matchmaking services. BetterUp, Torch are some of the more accessible ones.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
  • PrismaticoRecommendscompany

    “There's one called Prismatico. It's a little bit more higher end for for more senior execs.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
  • How to Hire a Product ManagerCoinedother · Ken Norton

    “your most popular post that you've ever written and maybe the thing that kind of put you on the radar of writing”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:09:00approx.
  • Ms. MarvelRecommendstv show · Bisha K. Ali

    “I love Ms. Marvel. And and I just my whole family were really enjoying it.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:12:30approx.
  • The 15 Commitments of Conscious LeadershipRecommendsbook · Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, and Kaley Klemp

    “15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership definitely on that book.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:12:30approx.
  • The Innovator's DilemmaRecommendsbook · Clayton M. Christensen

    “probably Innovator's Dilemma. It's probably my number one favorite book for for product managers and product leaders.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:12:30approx.
  • Marvel Cinematic UniverseMentionsother · Marvel Studios

    “I love all the MCU stuff. We just eat it up”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:13:00approx.
  • BarryRecommendstv show · Alec Berg and Bill Hader

    “we're also watching Barry, which is crazy. It's sort of like nothing else I think ever on TV.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:13:00approx.
  • SeveranceRecommendstv show · Dan Erickson

    “of the last year probably Severance is my favorite favorite program”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:13:00approx.
  • Bring the DonutsCoinedwebsite · Ken Norton

    “bringthedonuts.com is my home on the worldwide web. All my writing is there.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:16:30approx.
  • Ken Norton's newsletterCoinednewsletter · Ken Norton

    “I have a newsletter that I am sort of semi-occasionally send out”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:17:00approx.
  • Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “You can also learn more at lennyspodcast.com.”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:18:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take08:30

Why Advice Is Cotton Candy and Coaching Isn't

Ken explains why he moved from giving advice at Google Ventures to pure coaching. Advice feels good in the moment but rarely changes anything, because what worked at Google often doesn't transfer and it fails to confront the real problem. Real growth comes from helping people find their own path, not telling them what to do.

  • Advice gives a sugar high but 'doesn't have a lot of nutrition' — weeks later nothing has changed
  • What worked at Google may not work anywhere else, and may not even have worked at Google
  • Growth comes less from being told what to do and more from figuring out your own way
  • Working with his own executive coach helped him see he loved connecting with and helping people grow

“advice is not super not as powerful as you might think it is. Like, it's a it's a little bit like cotton candy. Doesn't have…”

Ken Norton · 08:30
#coaching#leadership#advice#career
Hot Take49:00

The Art of PM Matters More Than the Science

Ken argues the 'soft skills' dismissed earlier in his career — communication, collaboration, storytelling, difficult conversations — are the art of product management and matter as much or more than the science of backlogs and dashboards. His advice: invest in these the same way you'd invest in a technical skill, and use the fact that something feels hard and squishy as a signal it's worth doing.

  • The 'art' is communication, collaboration, and the fuzzy people stuff; the 'science' is the tactics and techniques
  • Invest in learning difficult conversations and storytelling the way you'd invest in a dashboard technique
  • People avoid this work precisely because it's hard
  • The hard, squishy thing is often a compass pointing to what you should be working on

“The art is communication, collaboration, the more sort of fuzzy, softer skills, people stuff.”

Ken Norton · 49:30
#product-management#soft-skills#communication

Explainer· 6

Explainer19:30

Creative vs Reactive Leadership (and the Research Behind It)

Ken introduces the core distinction he uses with clients: are you responding to the world from fear (seeing problems and threats, wanting to be right and liked) or from openness, curiosity, and purpose? He cites management scientists Bob Anderson and Bill Adams, whose research shows creative leadership correlates with success on every dimension — yet most leaders default to reactive.

  • Reactive = fear, defensiveness, wanting to be right/liked; creative = openness, possibility, purpose
  • The same idea appears everywhere: above/below the line, daring vs armored, playing to win vs not to lose
  • Bob Anderson and Bill Adams found creative leadership positively correlated with every measure of success
  • Despite that, roughly 70-75% of leaders operate primarily reactively

“Are you responding to the world from a place of fear where you see problems and threats?”

Ken Norton · 20:00

“yet according to their research research, some 70 75% of leaders are primarily operating reactively.”

Ken Norton · 22:00
#leadership#mindset#psychology
Explainer24:00

The Three Reactive Postures: Complying, Protecting, Controlling

Ken describes three ways leaders retreat into reactive mode, and stresses it isn't pathologizing — most people are more than one. Wanting approval and to be liked (complying), needing to be right and retreating into your ideas (protecting), and needing to win and dominate (controlling). Each starts from a good underlying tendency but develops a cost as you get more senior.

  • Complying: seeking approval and moving toward people — effective early, costly on decisiveness later
  • Protecting: needing to be right, distance and arrogance, retreating into your own head
  • Controlling: my-way-or-the-highway, autocratic, wanting dominance and to be number one
  • Usually one feels natural and another feels so distasteful you can't imagine operating that way

“there's usually underlying tendencies that are very good. It just starts to have a cost as you as you become more senior. It's like the…”

Ken Norton · 25:00
#leadership#psychology#self-awareness
Explainer37:30

Coaching vs Mentorship: Who Owns the Right Answer

Ken clarifies the distinction between coaching and mentorship. Mentorship is for people wanting concrete advice on how to do a thing; coaching is for those who believe there is no single right way and it will have to be their own. The words are squishy — many mentors step into a coaching role — but the real question is how much you want to be told the right way versus finding your own.

  • Mentorship suits people looking for concrete advice on how to do a thing
  • Coaching suits those who believe there's no single right way, only their own way
  • Many mentors and managers step into a coaching role as needed — the roles overlap
  • The right fit depends on your point in your career and level of the journey

“it's a question of how much are you looking for someone to tell you the right way um versus how much do you believe that…”

Ken Norton · 38:30
#coaching#mentorship#career
Explainer51:30

Imposter Phenomenon — and the Risk of Weaponizing It

Ken notes almost everyone experiences imposter feelings, and product leaders especially because the role is cross-functional and there's always an edge where someone is more qualified. There's solidarity in naming it. But he warns leaders not to weaponize imposter phenomenon against women and people of color, who often face real external bias, rather than dismissing systemic issues as an individual problem.

  • The role is so cross-functional there's always an edge where you're less qualified than whoever you're talking to
  • There's real value and solidarity in realizing others feel it too
  • Dismissing it as 'just your imposter syndrome' can shift the obligation onto the person and overlook systemic bias
  • He cites the HBR article 'Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome' by Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey

“there is the risk of dismissing or, you know, even maybe weaponizing imposter phenomenon against particular populations, particularly women,”

Ken Norton · 53:30
#imposter-syndrome#leadership#psychology#equity
Explainer55:30

Your Inner Board of Directors: Naming the Voices in Your Head

Ken shares a coaching technique for the inner critic: treat the voices as an 'inner board of directors' where noisy members sometimes grab the chair. Recognize you're the chairperson, name the voices (like 'Larry the loser'), and understand they usually have good intentions. He connects it to Internal Family Systems / parts work from psychologist Richard Schwartz.

  • Think of your inner voices as a board of directors; a chatty one sometimes takes over the chair
  • You are the chairperson and can tell a voice you'll hear from it later
  • Naming the critic (e.g. 'Larry the loser') creates self-distance and power
  • This maps to Internal Family Systems / 'parts work' from psychologist Richard Schwartz — like Pixar's Inside Out

“They're not me, they're parts of me. And and there's something really powerful in that, right?”

Ken Norton · 58:30
#inner-critic#coaching#psychology#self-awareness
Explainer1:04:30

10x vs 10%: Why Big Swings Beat Small Ball

Ken explains his popular idea that people think too small. Breakthrough innovation requires the willingness to try, fail, and shoot for the moon — and leaders must create environments where big ideas can surface. He uses Kodak, which invented the digital camera but never built an environment for the people who saw its potential to step up.

  • Playing small ball yields 10% improvements; big swings unlock massive breakthroughs over time
  • It's partly mindset and partly culture — leaders must create room for unexpected big ideas
  • Kodak invented the digital camera but lacked an environment for those who saw the opportunity to act
  • Google once used a 70/20/10 split: 70% core, 20% adjacent, 10% crazy bets — but bets can be fractal at any level

“Kodak invented the digital camera, right? It wasn't like, oh, Kodak people at Kodak were dumb. They didn't know digital was coming.”

Ken Norton · 1:06:30
#innovation#strategy#leadership#product-management

Story· 2

Story12:00

The Driving Analogy: Your Internal Operating System Needs a Reboot

Ken uses teaching his 16-year-old son to drive to illustrate leadership growth. As a kid cars just 'go places'; as a teen it looks easy; then behind the wheel it's overwhelmingly complex. The world hasn't changed — your place in it has, and that requires rebuilding your internal way of making meaning, not just learning more tactics.

  • A child isn't even aware driving is happening; a teen thinks it looks easy
  • Behind the wheel, the complexity (mirrors, signs, timing) overwhelms your old mindset
  • Everyone hands you a 'framework' (like the 10-and-2 hand position) but that's not the real problem
  • The real shift is redesigning your internal operating system to handle the complexity around you

“now your place in the world has shifted such that the internal meaning-making and self-complexity that is required requires a complete reboot of the of…”

Ken Norton · 14:30
#leadership#mindset#growth#complexity
Story16:30

You Thought You Were Playing — Now Everyone Thinks You Designed the Game

Ken compares an early PM career to learning a video game: tutorials, easy missions, low stakes, then getting good and running up the score. But at the leadership level the rules stop being black and white, feedback is delayed, and the physics get weird. The most frightening part is realizing everyone now looks at you as the designer of the game.

  • Early career feels like a game with tutorials, forgiving failures, and clear scoring
  • At the leadership level the rules blur and there's a long delay before you see results
  • The scary moment: people look at you as the game's designer while you thought you were a player
  • This is where 'what got me here is not going to get me there' bites, sometimes at real personal cost

“the most frightening part about it is you look around and everyone is looking at you like you're the designer of the game, and you…”

Ken Norton · 18:00
#leadership#career#mindset

Q&A· 1

Q&A59:30

How to Find a Coach and Know If They're Right for You

Asked how to find and evaluate a coach, Ken says it comes down to trust and fit — sometimes you just click, sometimes you don't, and that's fine. Any good coach offers a free session, and you should ask them to explain what coaching means to them. He points to the International Coaching Federation, and services like BetterUp, Torch, and Prismatico.

  • Fit and trust matter most — you don't need a bullet-point reason if it doesn't click
  • Any coach worth their salt offers a free session to gauge fit
  • Ask them to describe what coaching means to them, since styles vary from structured to pure
  • Sources: International Coaching Federation, BetterUp, Torch, Prismatico; and ask leaders you admire who they use

“all coaches worth their salt will offer a free session to to to try to understand that and gauge that.”

Ken Norton · 1:00:00
#coaching#career#hiring

Tool· 1

Tool44:00

Ken's Recommended Books for Leadership and Self-Work

Ken recommends a set of books and resources for the mindset and values work discussed. Several have free material on their websites, and he points to the deeper management-science and adult-development sources behind creative vs reactive leadership.

  • Brené Brown's 'Dare to Lead' (with a values section) plus free resources on her website
  • 'The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership' by Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, and Kaley Warner Klemp
  • 'Mastering Leadership' by Bob Anderson and Bill Adams for the management science and five levels of leadership
  • Robert Kegan's 'Immunity to Change' for adult stage development; plus 'The Innovator's Dilemma' for PMs

“The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership book is fantastic. There's a and and you don't even need to to buy the book. There's a ton…”

Ken Norton · 44:30
#books#leadership#resources#coaching

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway27:30

Trade 'Be Liked Now' for 'Admired a Decade Later'

Ken's personal unlock as a people-pleaser wasn't to stop caring about people — that was a core value — but to redirect that empathy toward purpose and vision. The key reframe: rather than needing everyone to leave the room liking him, he aimed to be the kind of leader people would want to work with again years later.

  • The answer wasn't to stop caring about people — that's a genuine value and part of who he is
  • Redirect empathy and connection toward purpose and vision instead of seeking approval
  • Let go of needing to be liked in the moment; redefine it as admiration earned over time
  • This preserves the underlying gift while changing how it serves you

“I want to be the type of leader where a decade later people say I would work with that guy again in a heartbeat.”

Ken Norton · 28:00
#leadership#mindset#people-pleasing
Takeaway46:30

The #1 PM Blind Spot: It's All About People, Not Product

Ken's biggest observed blind spot: nearly every challenge senior executives face comes down to people, not product. PMs are leaders from day one without formal authority, which means they practice the hardest part of leadership — influence without a hierarchy — from the very start. The blind spot is not treating people skills as a skill to deliberately develop.

  • Executive challenges are about persuading people, aligning groups, and handling difficult personalities
  • PMs are leaders from day one but have no formal authority
  • The hardest part of leadership is leading without relying on formal authority — PMs practice it early
  • The blind spot is being confronted with people problems without ever treating them as a skill to improve

“the hardest part about being a leader is when when you don't get to just rely on the formal authority.”

Ken Norton · 47:30
#product-management#leadership#people-skills
Takeaway1:09:30

Hiring PMs: Can They Pass the Interview vs Can They Do the Job

From his most popular post on hiring product managers, Ken warns the interview pendulum has swung too far toward structured SAT-prep-style processes. Candidates can ace the questions without anyone learning whether they can actually do the job — inspire engineers and designers, or even agree on what the role is. He urges focusing on the intangibles, especially at smaller companies.

  • Before writing a job description, agree on what the job actually is
  • Over-structured interviews become SAT prep where candidates are ready but fit goes unchecked
  • Passing the interview is not the same as being able to do the job
  • Candidates should interview the employer too: what do you want, and is this the right place for you

“it's like they can pass the interview, but can they do the job?”

Ken Norton · 1:10:30
#hiring#product-management#interviewing