Nilan Peiris (CPO of Wise)24 September 2023

How to drive word of mouth

7Frameworks

15Insights

Episode overview

Wise CPO Nilan Peiris explains how the company attributes roughly 70% of customer acquisition to word of mouth and uses Net Promoter Score comments to identify price, speed, and ease of use as its core advocacy drivers. He argues that recommendation requires a genuinely unprecedented, roughly 10-times-better experience, often achieved through difficult infrastructure, regulatory, and cost-reduction work rather than incremental optimization. The conversation also covers Wise's conviction-led product management, global-and-local team structure, and in-product communication that makes savings and instant transfers perceptible enough to share.

Key ideas

Ask customers directly how they discovered the product, then combine survey answers with referral, cookie, and traffic-attribution data.
Use Net Promoter Score behavior and comments to connect stronger advocacy with concrete product attributes; at Wise these are price, speed, and ease of use.
Word of mouth requires an experience customers did not know was possible, not merely a functioning product or a modest conversion-rate improvement.
Work backward from theoretical limits—such as the lowest possible transfer cost or maximum possible speed—and accept multi-year infrastructure and regulatory work.
Build conviction from quantitative and qualitative customer evidence, then make larger product bets while retaining data checks for harmful effects.
Align customer value and business value in one prioritized list: hard improvements that delight customers can increase advocacy, growth, and shareholder value together.
Product marketing inside the experience should close the gap between delivered value and perceived value, such as visualizing savings or clearly signaling an instant transfer.
Wise combines global product ownership with local teams that contribute directly to a shared codebase so one platform can meet varied regulatory requirements.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Innovation4 steps

Blow Their Socks Off: The 10x Word-of-Mouth Bar

To earn recommendation, give users an experience they didn't know was previously possible

Read →

Strategy4 steps

Conviction-Led Product Management

You can't split-test your way to love — build conviction on what matters, then make one big change

Read →

Finance4 steps

Cost-Allocation Pricing to Fuel Word-of-Mouth

Allocate every real cost to the customer who caused it, raise heavy users, cut everyone else's price

Read →

Entrepreneurship4 steps

Do the Unscalable to Get Customers to Lobby For You

Deliver a painful manual experience so good that customers complain to the regulator, not to you

Read →

Leadership4 steps

Mission Authenticity as an Emotional Referral Engine

An authentic mission that customers genuinely believe becomes a word-of-mouth channel money can't buy

Read →

Marketing4 steps

Product Marketing: Closing the Perception Delta

Make users perceive the value you actually delivered — close the gap between done and perceived

Read →

Marketing4 steps

The NPS Doubling Curve for Viral Growth

Optimize NPS instead of conversion, because each promoter tier doubles how many people they tell

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 10

Nilan PeirisMentionsNalan is Chief product officer at WISE where he's been for over 11 years basically from the beginning of the journey
“Nalan is Chief product officer at WISE where he's been for over 11 years basically from the beginning of the journey”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“today my guest is Milan Puris Nalan is Chief product officer at WISE”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Taavet HinrikusMentionsin the early days when I met the founders at Christo and Tarver
“in the early days when I met the founders at Christo and Tarver”
▶ Watch at ~8:00approx.
Kristo KäärmannMentionsin the early days when I met the founders at Christo and Tarver
“in the early days when I met the founders at Christo and Tarver”
▶ Watch at ~8:00approx.
Larry FinkMentionsthe CEO of BlackRock Larry Fink
“the CEO of BlackRock Larry Fink has said it's one of the greatest stores of wealth internationally”
▶ Watch at ~41:00approx.
Steve JobsMentionsSteve Jobs is just uh the bar he held for the company and for technical talent and for excellence was not uh wavering.
“everyone thinks they're kind of Steve Jobs type thing”
▶ Watch at ~42:30approx.
Seth GodinCoinedSeth is an absolute Legend he's published 21 books including 18 International bestsellers
“something Seth Godin talks about I don't know if you've heard of this guy he's uh marketing Guru and he has this concept”
▶ Watch at ~55:30approx.
Salman RushdieCoinedmentioned
“Midnight's Children by Salman Rusty”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:30approx.
Fyodor DostoevskyCoinedmentioned
“like dosto misky Crime and Punishment where this uh guy kills somebody”
▶ Watch at ~1:10:00approx.
Josh MillerMentionstoday my guest is Josh Miller Josh is the CEO and co-founder of a company called the browser company
“we had a Josh the CEO of uh the browser Company of New York it's called on the podcast”
▶ Watch at ~1:13:00approx.

Resources · 37

Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
PendoMentionssoftware · Pendo
“this episode is brought to you by pendo the all-in-one platform for product light companies building breakthrough digital experiences”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Wix StudioMentionssoftware · Wix
“Wix Studio the new platform that lets agencies deliver exceptional client sites with maximum efficiency”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
WiseUsescompany
“I'm a very happy uh weekly active user”
▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
Wise PlatformCoinedproduct · Wise
“we also got an Enterprise product where we take the underlying infrastructure that's powered those products that we've built”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
WiseMentionscompany
“we're now moving about 12 billion dollars a month growing between 30 to 40 percent year on year”
▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk
“that's actually at Airbnb exactly how the team did that to understand what percentage of growth those are the mouth”
▶ Watch at ~7:00approx.
Google AdsUsessoftware · Google
“I sat there with them and we kind of launched the first Google ads”
▶ Watch at ~8:00approx.
iPhoneMentionsproduct · Apple
“higher than the iPhone and Google Google search”
▶ Watch at ~19:00approx.
Google SearchMentionssoftware · Google
“higher than the iPhone and Google Google search”
▶ Watch at ~19:00approx.
PixarMentionscompany
“the founders hired this storyboard artist from Pixar to draw out the ideal experience of a host and a guest”
▶ Watch at ~23:30approx.
WeWorkUsescompany · Adam Neumann and Miguel McKelvey
“we opened that office that we work and customers like you went through this really Sleek clothing”
▶ Watch at ~30:30approx.
MasterworksMentionscompany
“this episode is brought to you by Masterworks the premier art investing platform”
▶ Watch at ~40:30approx.
SnapchatMentionssoftware · Snap Inc.
“I think about Snapchat and a recent mobile social apps”
▶ Watch at ~45:30approx.
Currency Converter by WiseCoinedtool · Wise
“the founder and the SEO team went out and built it and it's like huge”
▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
Wise AccountCoinedproduct · Wise
“we got to account and then we got to Enterprise”
▶ Watch at ~48:30approx.
Bank of EnglandUsescompany
“we now have a bank account at the bank of England the National Bank of Singapore Bank of Australia”
▶ Watch at ~53:00approx.
Monetary Authority of SingaporeUsescompany
“we now have a bank account at the bank of England the National Bank of Singapore Bank of Australia”
▶ Watch at ~53:00approx.
Reserve Bank of AustraliaUsescompany
“we now have a bank account at the bank of England the National Bank of Singapore Bank of Australia”
▶ Watch at ~53:00approx.
CitibankMentionscompany
“say you open a bank account with Citibank in the US and then you go to Citibank in the UK”
▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
HSBCMentionscompany
“one in Europe say for Citibank or for HSBC but they have deep local Integrations”
▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
Federal ReserveMentionscompany
“CD Bank in the US has got relationships say with the Federal Reserve”
▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
PayPalMentionscompany · Max Levchin, Peter Thiel, and Luke Nosek
“Surrender Spectrum we've got something like PayPal so it's tech company it's got a single Global Tech stack”
▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
RobinhoodMentionscompany
“you take Robert heard it was in the U.S it came to the UK they went back to the US”
▶ Watch at ~1:00:30approx.
MonzoMentionscompany
“you take monzo only the UK n26 only in Europe”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.
N26Mentionscompany
“you take monzo only the UK n26 only in Europe”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.
Spotify modelUsesother · Spotify
“we started heading towards the Spotify model where we grouped the teams in squads and into into tribes”
▶ Watch at ~1:02:00approx.
BeamMentionscompany
“beam in the UK or working on homelessness”
▶ Watch at ~1:08:30approx.
AffinityMentionscompany
“affinity and Neo banking Ghana”
▶ Watch at ~1:08:30approx.
Midnight's ChildrenRecommendsbook · Salman Rushdie
“Midnight's Children by Salman Rusty”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:30approx.
Crime and PunishmentRecommendsbook · Fyodor Dostoevsky
“so I recommend that a lot”
▶ Watch at ~1:10:30approx.
BarbieUsesfilm · Greta Gerwig
“we'd rent a Barbie by the kids that one”
▶ Watch at ~1:11:00approx.
ArcUsessoftware · The Browser Company
“I recently switched to awk and browser that's what I use it”
▶ Watch at ~1:12:00approx.
ArcRecommendssoftware · The Browser Company
“if you're interested in learning about Arc story definitely check out that episode”
▶ Watch at ~1:13:00approx.
The Browser CompanyMentionscompany · Josh Miller and Hursh Agrawal
“we had a Josh the CEO of uh the browser Company of New York it's called on the podcast”
▶ Watch at ~1:13:00approx.
SpotifyMentionssoftware · Spotify
“you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app”
▶ Watch at ~1:16:00approx.
Apple PodcastsMentionssoftware · Apple Inc.
“you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app”
▶ Watch at ~1:16:00approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take19:30

To Get Word of Mouth, Blow Their Socks Off

Most teams stop building when a product works; some push a bit further on conversion rate for a small growth bump. Nilan argues real word of mouth requires giving users an experience they didn't know was previously possible, doing something no one has ever done before, which for Wise meant instant transfers and dropping the price from 6% to 0.35%.

Most founders stop when the product merely works
Recommendation requires an experience users didn't know was possible
For Wise: instant money movement and price from 6% down to 0.35%
These come from solving hard systemic infrastructure problems, over years

“you have to give them an experience they didn't know was previously possible and when you're in that place of doing something that no one…”
Nilan Peiris · 20:00

#word-of-mouth#product#ambition#growth

Hot Take35:30

Great Companies Keep One List, Not Two

Nilan observes that most businesses keep two lists: things to do for customers and things to do to make money, and they always do the money items but only some customer items. Wise (and Airbnb) instead keep a single list of things that make customers happy, prioritized by impact, and the hard high-impact items drive both growth and shareholder value.

Most companies keep a customer list and a make-money list, and money always wins
Wise keeps one list: things that make customers happy
It's prioritized by impact on the really hard things
The hard customer wins also drive growth and shareholder value

“we just had one list which is this list of things that you need to do to make customers happy”
Nilan Peiris · 36:00

#prioritization#customer-focus#strategy#product

Hot Take38:30

You Can't Split-Test Your Way to Love

Wise builds conviction about what matters (price, speed, ease of use) rather than throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. Nilan argues experiment-led product management is expensive in engineering and, backed by a data 'net' to avoid hubris, conviction enables far bigger changes than incremental testing ever could.

Conviction-led beats experiment-led when engineering is expensive
A data 'net' keeps conviction from turning into hubris
Conviction enables much bigger changes than incremental A/B tests
It forces clarity on the real problem and how to solve it well

“you can't split test your way to love right”
Nilan Peiris · 38:30

#experimentation#product-management#conviction#strategy

Explainer· 5

Explainer06:00

How Wise Measures Word of Mouth: Just Ask Customers

Wise knows 70% of growth is word of mouth because they simply ask customers, overlaying an attribution model on top of referral and cookie data. The question is stitched directly into the product flow rather than bolted on, an approach Nilan notes Airbnb also used with a simple interstitial pop-up.

An attribution model overlays referral, cookie, and direct-traffic data
They sample and survey customers to size the word-of-mouth number
The 'how did you hear about us' question is integrated into the product flow
Airbnb used the same tactic: a little interstitial pop-up on the site

“we ask customers is the short answer”
Nilan Peiris · 06:30

“it's just like just ask people they'll tell you how they heard of it”
Lenny · 07:30

#word-of-mouth#attribution#measurement#growth

Explainer10:30

Every NPS Point Higher Doubles How Many People Users Tell

When Wise overlaid referral data onto NPS scores, they found the number of people a customer tells doubles as you move from sixes/sevens to eights, doubles again to nines, and doubles again to tens. Moving NPS increases the viral coefficient of the whole customer base, so unlike a one-off conversion-rate bump the ROI compounds.

Detractors barely refer; advocacy climbs steeply at the top of the scale
Each step up the NPS scale roughly doubles the number of people told
Moving conversion rate is a one-off hit; moving NPS raises the viral coefficient
This made NPS the metric to optimize the whole business around

“when you've got people from sixes to this seven and eight group they doubled the number of people they told eight to nine they doubled…”
Nilan Peiris · 11:00

“if you move the MPS like from 30 to 50 you increase the viral coefficient of your customer base”
Nilan Peiris · 12:00

#nps#word-of-mouth#viral-coefficient#metrics

Explainer22:30

Work Backwards From the Theoretical Ideal, Not Forward From Today

Plugging in someone else's infrastructure gets a few users but never hockey-stick growth, because it doesn't fundamentally change the problem. Instead, Wise asks the theoretical minimum cost and maximum speed possible, then works backwards over years to get there, an approach Nilan links to Airbnb's practice of designing the ideal experience first.

Shortcuts (plugging in existing infra) yield users but no exponential growth
Ask the theoretical minimum cost and maximum speed, not incremental gains
Incremental improvement never reaches the ideal; a two-year leap can
Airbnb's Pixar-storyboarded keyframes and instant-booking came from this

“what is the theoretical minimum cost for moving money into a market what is the theoretical maximum speed”
Nilan Peiris · 23:00

“something I learned at Airbnb is this idea of working backwards from the ideal instead of working forwards from like how do we iterate”
Lenny · 23:30

#strategy#product#first-principles#airbnb

Explainer25:30

How Wise Cut Prices: Allocate Every Cost Back to the Transaction

Rather than losing money on transfers, Wise stays profitable on every transaction by allocating each bill down to the customer or transaction that generated it, then adding margin. Analysis shows 20% of customers generate 80% of costs, so Wise raises prices on that heavy segment to cover their costs and drops the price for everyone else.

Every incurred cost is allocated back to the transaction that caused it, then margin added
Costs get traced atomically (e.g. a support call routed to its currency pair)
20% of customers generate 80% of the costs
Give the heavy 20% a raise to cover their costs; drop the price for everyone else

“every single Bill we got we allocated the cost back to the customer or the transaction that generated it and then we add our margin…”
Nilan Peiris · 26:30

“you get those 20 you give them a raise because they should cover their costs and you drop the price for everyone else”
Nilan Peiris · 27:00

#pricing#unit-economics#fintech#strategy

Explainer1:04:30

Product Marketing: Closing the Gap Between Value Done and Value Perceived

A PM on the referral team realized customers believed they saved money but didn't believe the actual number. He iterated a comparison graph with real users in a coffee shop until it landed, put it on the transfer success page with a share button, and 3x'd the sharing rate. Nilan calls closing this delta between what you delivered and what users perceive 'product marketing.'

Customers believed they saved money but didn't believe the specific number
The PM iterated a bank-vs-Wise comparison graph with real users until it clicked
Placed on the success page with a share button, it 3x'd the sharing rate
Same pattern with speed: an animation showing the transfer was instant lifted referrals

“he realized that people believed they saved money but they didn't believe the number”
Nilan Peiris · 1:05:00

“closing this Delta between what you've done and what you perceived to be done is what I call product marketing”
Nilan Peiris · 1:07:30

#product-marketing#referral#perception#word-of-mouth

Story· 4

Story04:30

70% of Wise's New Users Come From Word of Mouth

Nilan shares the scale Wise has reached: moving about $12 billion a month, profitable for over four years, with 16 million customers. The stat he is proudest of is that of the roughly one million new customers a quarter, more than two-thirds discover Wise through a friend rather than paid marketing.

Wise moves ~$12 billion a month, growing 30-40% year on year
Takes about 0.65% on average across all routes; profitable 4+ years
16 million customers, ~10 million active, ~1 million new per quarter
Last month, 700,000 of the new users found out about Wise from a friend

“we acquired 70 of the users that found out about wise last month through Word of Mouth so contextually we have 16 million customers”
Nilan Peiris · 05:00

#word-of-mouth#growth#fintech#metrics

Story29:30

Doing the Unscalable: How Wise Won Singapore's First eKYC License

Singapore's regulator granted Wise a license but required them to physically meet every customer face to face. Wise sent a team, opened an office, and ran a deliberately expensive, unscalable in-person verification, then got those customers to complain to the government, winning the world's first eKYC license after a year of lobbying.

Regulator required face-to-face verification for every customer
Wise ran an expensive, unscalable in-person office as a stepping stone
They got customers to complain to the government, not to Wise
After a year of lobbying, they won the world's first eKYC license (selfie + ID)

“we got the customers not to complain to us but to complain to the government it took a year of lobbying”
Nilan Peiris · 31:00

“that's what I call a 10x better experience than anyone else in the market and that led to advocacy and word of mouth off the…”
Nilan Peiris · 31:00

#regulation#singapore#do-things-that-dont-scale#story

Story32:00

The Mission Email That Beat Every Marketing Campaign

When Wise rebranded years ago, they broke their mission and emailed it to customers. That email, with no call to action and no sign-up button, got forwarded around and brought in more new customers than any other marketing. Nilan attributes it to the authenticity of founders genuinely upset about the cost of moving money.

The mission email had no CTA, no sign-up button, nothing to click
Customers forwarded it saying 'you should check out Wise'
It brought more new customers than any other marketing channel
It worked because the mission was authentic, not a growth scheme

“we got more new customers from that email being forwarded around than any other kind of marketing”
Nilan Peiris · 32:30

“this email broke all the rules of marketing it did have a call to action it didn't have a button to sign up it didn't…”
Nilan Peiris · 32:30

#mission#brand#word-of-mouth#marketing

Story46:30

The 'Crazy Idea' Currency Converter That Drove Huge Traffic

Wise has a culture where teams can pursue ideas even when leadership thinks they're crazy. Nilan cites the currency converter on the Wise homepage: he and Kristo thought capturing that generic search traffic was a crazy idea, but the founder and SEO team built it anyway and it became a huge source of visits and discovery.

Currency-converter search has enormous traffic
Leadership thought building one to capture it was a crazy idea
The founder and SEO team built it anyway and it became huge
Wise's converter shows its price and lets you sign up, driving discovery

“this is a crazy idea and the founder and the SEO team went out and built it and it's like huge”
Nilan Peiris · 47:30

#seo#culture#growth#story

Q&A· 1

Q&A1:11:00

Nilan's Favorite Interview Question

Instead of asking candidates why they want to join, Nilan asks what most frustrates them about where they currently work. The answer reveals what they're running away from, usually something broken they were unable to fix, which exposes their limits and whether they'll hit the same wall at your company.

Ask what frustrates them now, not why they want to join
It reveals what they're running away from, not the rehearsed pitch
Usually there's something broken they couldn't fix
Probing it shows their limits and where they get stuck

“what frustrates you the most about where you're working right now”
Nilan Peiris · 1:11:30

“what's interesting trying to figure out is what they're running away from and usually there's something broken there”
Nilan Peiris · 1:11:30

#hiring#interviewing#management#lightning-round

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway13:30

People Only Talk When You're 8-10x Better, Not 10% Better

Being marginally better doesn't drive word of mouth. When Wise entered a market priced at 5.9 against an alternative of 6, users switched but stayed silent. Advocacy only kicked in when Wise was eight to ten times cheaper.

A small price edge wins customers but earns no advocacy
Wise only got people talking when it was 8-10x cheaper
The bar for word of mouth is far higher than the bar for adoption

“we only got the advocacy when we were eight to ten times cheaper that's when that's when the uh that's when people started talking about…”
Nilan Peiris · 14:00

#word-of-mouth#pricing#advocacy#growth

Takeaway16:30

The Strongest Trust Signal Is a Friend, Not Your Landing Page

Trust was Nilan's hardest problem in marketing for a cheap money-transfer product that sounds too good to be true. What actually solved it was that people trust their friends far more than any trust element on a landing page, so delivering a recommendation-worthy experience shortcuts most trust problems.

A cheap money-transfer pitch triggers 'is this safe / reputable' doubts
A friend's recommendation is a far stronger trust signal than any landing page
Marketing aids recall, but the friend's endorsement does the trust work
Best shortcut: make the experience so good customers recommend it

“what people trust is their friends and this really was way stronger a trust signal than anything I could put on a landing page”
Nilan Peiris · 17:30

#trust#word-of-mouth#marketing#growth

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Blow Their Socks Off: The 10x Word-of-Mouth Bar

Conviction-Led Product Management

Cost-Allocation Pricing to Fuel Word-of-Mouth

Do the Unscalable to Get Customers to Lobby For You

Mission Authenticity as an Emotional Referral Engine

Product Marketing: Closing the Perception Delta

The NPS Doubling Curve for Viral Growth

People & resources mentioned

People · 10

Resources · 37

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 3

To Get Word of Mouth, Blow Their Socks Off

Great Companies Keep One List, Not Two

You Can't Split-Test Your Way to Love

✶Explainer· 5

How Wise Measures Word of Mouth: Just Ask Customers

Every NPS Point Higher Doubles How Many People Users Tell

Work Backwards From the Theoretical Ideal, Not Forward From Today

How Wise Cut Prices: Allocate Every Cost Back to the Transaction

Product Marketing: Closing the Gap Between Value Done and Value Perceived

❝Story· 4

70% of Wise's New Users Come From Word of Mouth

Doing the Unscalable: How Wise Won Singapore's First eKYC License

The Mission Email That Beat Every Marketing Campaign

The 'Crazy Idea' Currency Converter That Drove Huge Traffic

?Q&A· 1

Nilan's Favorite Interview Question

▲Takeaway· 2

People Only Talk When You're 8-10x Better, Not 10% Better

The Strongest Trust Signal Is a Friend, Not Your Landing Page

Hot Take· 3

Explainer· 5

Story· 4

Q&A· 1

Takeaway· 2