Petra Wille (Strong Product People)27 November 2022

How to be the best coach to product people

5Frameworks

15Insights

Episode overview

Product leadership coach Petra Wille explains a five-part approach to developing product managers: define good performance, assess the person, align on a future vision, create a development plan, and follow up consistently. She argues that storytelling and public speaking materially affect career growth, and recommends deliberate practice, plain emotional language, tested story structures, and multiple presentation formats. The conversation also examines how internal and external product communities support learning, retention, networking, and scalable people development.

Key ideas

Managers can begin with one concrete development plan instead of waiting for a company-wide competency framework.
Effective coaching combines a clear performance compass, an assessment of the PM's current position, a shared vision, a development plan, and consistent follow-up.
PM competency is multidimensional; Petra's PM Wheel covers problems, solutions, planning, delivery, learning, teamwork, personal growth, and agile practice.
Strong stories take substantial preparation and should replace business jargon with natural language that reaches both emotion and reason.
Aspiring public speakers can build confidence through small, friendly audiences, repeated practice, and feedback from both peers and strangers.
Important product stories should be tested aloud, may use structures such as the hero's journey, and should exist in spoken, written, and visual forms of different lengths.
Healthy product communities create networking and learning opportunities, improve employee retention, distribute people development, and need purposeful rituals and shared responsibility.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Leadership5 steps

Community of Practice as People Development

Build and evaluate a product community that scales growth cheaper than courses or coaches

Read →

Communication4 steps

Growing Into Public Speaking

Start with tiny friendly audiences, grow the room, and mine feedback from strangers and peers

Read →

Communication5 steps

Story as a Design Tool

Draft, test, and package a leadership story across three lengths and three formats

Read →

Leadership5 steps

The Five Ingredients of Coaching Product People

A five-step loop for developing the product managers who report to you

Read →

Leadership3 steps

The PM Wheel

An eight-bucket self-assessment for locating a product manager's strengths and gaps

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 17

Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Petra WilleMentionsPetra is an independent product leadership coach and author of strong product people
“today my guest is Petra vile Petra is an independent product leadership coach and author of strong product people”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Petra WilleMentionsPetra is an independent product leadership coach and author of strong product people
“I work with people leading product people so that's the product leadership level that I'm looking at”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
Marty CaganMentionsMarty has been helping product teams and product managers improve their craft processes and careers for over 20 years
“obviously Monty Kagan has an assessment”
▶ Watch at ~22:00approx.
Matt MocharyMentionsMatt is a full-time executive coach but not just any coach he's worked with folks like nabal the CEOs of openai coinbase Reddit
“his name's France Matt machari instead of machari”
▶ Watch at ~33:30approx.
Hans RoslingRecommendsIt comes from Ola Rosling and Hans Rosling and Anna Rosling.
“another great speaker is definitely Hans rosling”
▶ Watch at ~46:30approx.
Sarah KayRecommendsmentioned
“I usually send people off to the Ted Talk from Sarah K”
▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
Steven PressfieldCoinedmentioned
“it's by uh Stephen pressfield who wrote The War of Art and Bagger Vance”
▶ Watch at ~52:00approx.
Marty CaganMentionsMarty has been helping product teams and product managers improve their craft processes and careers for over 20 years
“back in the day when Marty King was my product coach”
▶ Watch at ~52:00approx.
Guy KawasakiCoinedmentioned
“selling the dream which is the Macintosh story on product evangelizing by Kawasaki”
▶ Watch at ~52:00approx.
Nancy DuarteRecommendsAuthor whose work JM Nichols gives to product managers developing communication, storytelling, and presentation skills.
“material that helped me is basically everything from Nancy Duarte and Duarte Inc”
▶ Watch at ~52:30approx.
Daniel PinkMentionsmentioned
“people tend to stay with companies where they're learning and growing and can yeah get to Mastery so to say hello Daniel pink”
▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
Teresa TorresMentionspeople like Teresa Torres and others that have come up with a technique that is universal
“what Teresa is doing um in her community I interviewed her”
▶ Watch at ~1:02:00approx.
TreyMentionswho leads the community
“Trey who leads the community hello curates the best conversations in the back every week”
▶ Watch at ~1:05:30approx.
JessMentionswho's helping with our mentorship program
“Jess who's helping with our mentorship program”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
RiaMentionswho's been helping out run the Meetup program
“Ria who's been helping out run the Meetup program”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
Martin ErikssonCoinedmentioned
“one is Martin Erickson's decision stack”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:00approx.

Resources · 34

FlatfileRecommendssoftware · Flatfile
“if you'd like to learn more or get started check out flat file at flatfile.com”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
MixpanelRecommendssoftware · Mixpanel
“see what mixpanel can do for you at mixpanel.com”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
Strong Product PeopleCoinedbook · Petra Wille
“speaking of your book you wrote a book it's about product leadership and coaching”
▶ Watch at ~9:30approx.
Strong Product PeopleRecommendsbook · Petra Wille
“they should be available on Amazon and it's strong product people a complete guide to developing great product managers”
▶ Watch at ~10:30approx.
PM DaisyRecommendstool
“there's the PM Daisy and obviously Monty Kagan has an assessment”
▶ Watch at ~22:00approx.
PM WheelCoinedtool · Petra Wille
“I created a framework called the PM wheel”
▶ Watch at ~22:00approx.
Agile ManifestoMentionsother
“they often never heard about the agile Manifesto or agile values or agile principles”
▶ Watch at ~25:30approx.
PM WheelUsestool · Petra Wille
“that's why I created a PM wheel to have this first conversations”
▶ Watch at ~27:00approx.
Eisenhower MatrixUsestool
“maybe it's really something like explaining them the Eisenhower Matrix for getting better time management”
▶ Watch at ~29:00approx.
Continuous Discovery HabitsUsesbook · Teresa Torres
“that's what they read over and over again for the whole year”
▶ Watch at ~30:00approx.
AssemblyAIRecommendscompany · AssemblyAI
“visit assemblyai.com to try assembly ai's API for free”
▶ Watch at ~35:00approx.
ProductTankRecommendsevent · Mind the Product
“then product tanks for example this local product Community meetups that totally helped me”
▶ Watch at ~42:00approx.
If I Should Have a DaughterRecommendsother · Sarah Kay
“the Ted Talk from Sarah K which has the nice title if I should have a daughter”
▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
Our World in DataMentionswebsite
“Hans rosling is the guy with the like World poverty charts and exactly our world and data”
▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*tRecommendsbook · Steven Pressfield
“it's called nobody wants to read your and it's by”
▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
Selling the DreamRecommendsbook · Guy Kawasaki
“he made me read selling the dream which is the Macintosh story on product evangelizing by Kawasaki”
▶ Watch at ~52:00approx.
The War of ArtCoinedbook · Steven Pressfield
“Stephen pressfield who wrote The War of Art and Bagger Vance”
▶ Watch at ~52:00approx.
The Legend of Bagger VanceCoinedbook · Steven Pressfield
“Stephen pressfield who wrote The War of Art and Bagger Vance”
▶ Watch at ~52:00approx.
Duarte, Inc.Recommendscompany · Nancy Duarte
“material that helped me is basically everything from Nancy Duarte and Duarte Inc”
▶ Watch at ~52:30approx.
Mind the ProductMentionscompany · Janna Bastow and co-founders
“they never heard of your community or to racist Community or mind the product or any of those external communities”
▶ Watch at ~55:30approx.
Lenny's Newsletter CommunityCoinedother · Lenny Rachitsky
“if you're a paid subscriber to my newsletter you get access to the slack and there's about 10 000 people in there”
▶ Watch at ~1:00:30approx.
Community WisdomMentionsnewsletter · Lenny Rachitsky
“shares them in this new bonus email Community wisdom”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
Outcomes Over OutputRecommendsbook · Josh Seiden
“what I use a lot in my coaching practice especially with senior Executives who is outcomes over output”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:00approx.
Decision StackCoinedtool · Martin Eriksson
“two concepts that I hope will make it into books and one is Martin Erickson's decision stack”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:00approx.
The Art of Thinking ClearlyRecommendsbook · Rolf Dobelli
“the art of thinking clearly by the belly it talks about human biases in a really nice and Illustrated way”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:00approx.
Present YourselfRecommendsbook
“that is called present yourself a public speaking book”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:30approx.
The Product Experience PodcastRecommendspodcast
“I love the product Experience Podcast”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:30approx.
Product MenschenRecommendspodcast
“if you're able to speak German then there is one that is called Product mentioned that's a nice interview series”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:30approx.
New AmsterdamRecommendstv show
“maybe New Amsterdam I loved it”
▶ Watch at ~1:08:00approx.
HarvestUsessoftware
“Harvest is what I use for time tracking and bookkeeping and I love that that makes my life easier”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:00approx.
QontoUsessoftware
“one is Quanto I think it's a German bank but they really did a great job in the user experience”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:30approx.
Product Engage HamburgCoinedevent · Petra Wille
“I'm a conference organizer as well for a conference that was called my the product engage here in Hamburg”
▶ Watch at ~1:10:00approx.
Petra Wille's websiteMentionswebsite · Petra Wille
“there is my website petram minus w-i-l-l-e.com that's my website”
▶ Watch at ~1:11:00approx.
Lenny's Podcast websiteMentionswebsite · Lenny Rachitsky
“you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com”
▶ Watch at ~1:12:00approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster36:00

You Don't Get Good at Storytelling Overnight

Beginners badly underestimate how much time great storytellers pour into crafting and packaging a story. Petra's rule of thumb: a company-wide story about the next three to four months is roughly two weeks of work — one or two hours a day — because compelling, lasting stories can't be improvised.

Great storytellers invest heavily in creating and formatting their stories
A story explaining the next 3-4 months to the company is about two weeks of work
That's roughly one or two hours a day, not eight-hour days
You don't get better overnight; it takes practice and deliberate time

“that's maybe the first tip you have to plan to put in a lot of work to create your story”
Petra · 36:30

“then I think that's two weeks of work not eight hours a day obviously but two weeks of work maybe one or two hours a…”
Petra · 37:00

#storytelling#communication#leadership

Hot Take· 4

Hot Take30:00

Pick One Book and Study It for a Whole Year

Instead of endlessly consuming new content, one of Petra's coachees stopped reading widely and dedicated an entire year to a single methodology — Teresa Torres' Continuous Discovery Habits — rereading it over and over. A committed, deep approach that trades breadth for real mastery.

One coachee quit consuming lots of books and content
He committed a full year to a single book and methodology
He reread Continuous Discovery Habits repeatedly across the year
The trade-off: you'd better pick the right book, then share learnings with peers

“he stopped reading a lot of books and consuming a lot of content and he instead dedicates the whole year to using one methodology or…”
Petra · 30:00

#learning#focus#discovery

Hot Take44:30

Weak Storytelling Caps Your Career

You can do the IC-level PM job without being a strong speaker, but getting promoted is far harder if you can't tell stories and rally a team behind a shared goal. A whole team can compensate to some extent, but a lack of storytelling and public-speaking ability is a real career limiter.

You can do IC product work without strong public speaking
Promotion gets much harder without storytelling and team-rallying skills
Many people do public speaking but never actually land their point
A team can help create the stories, so you can compensate somewhat

“but getting promoted is way harder if you're not good in telling stories and running the team behind the shared goal and all these kind…”
Petra · 45:00

“but I would consider it a bit of a career starter if you don't get to a decent level of Storytelling and to a decent…”
Petra · 45:30

#career#storytelling#promotion#public-speaking

Hot Take56:30

A Community of Practice Is the Cheapest Way to Develop People

A good product community of practice increases stickiness — people stay where they're learning — and takes people-development work off the product lead's desk. Compared to expensive trainings, conference tickets, and external coaches, letting people learn from each other is remarkably cheap.

Communities increase retention because people stay where they grow
A good community offloads people-development from the product lead
Trainings, conference tickets, and external coaches are all expensive
Making room for peers to learn from each other is a cheap, high-ROI alternative

“it's actually a pretty cheap way of doing people development because trainings are expensive conference tickets are expensive getting an external product code expensive”
Petra · 57:00

#community#people-development#retention#roi

Hot Take1:03:30

Don't Be the Center of Your Community

A community resting on the shoulders of one to three people isn't sustainable — it becomes a company-like pyramid rather than a community. Petra advises distributing the workload and responsibility, thinking in circles of interest and building bridges between them so members help each other.

A community carried by one to three people is not sustainable
Distribute workload and responsibility, including unpleasant jobs like moderation
Centralized control makes it a pyramid, not a community
Think in smaller circles of interest and connect them with bridges

“it's not sustainable if the whole Community is on the shoulders of one two three people so you need to distribute the workload”
Petra · 1:04:00

#community#leadership#sustainability

Explainer· 2

Explainer06:30

Why Non-Product Managers Struggle to Lead PMs

Many product leaders come from marketing, business, data, or engineering and never worked as a PM themselves. Because they don't understand the craft, they can't point their reports toward relevant talks, books, or best practices, so IC PMs are forced to learn everything on their own with nobody curating their progression.

A large share of product leads have never worked in a product management role
They lack empathy for the day-to-day struggle of product people
They can't direct reports to existing best practices, talks, or books
IC PMs then have to learn the craft alone with no one curating their growth

“plus how should you help people grow if you have no clue what their role actually is all about”
Petra · 06:30

#coaching#product-leadership#management#empathy

Explainer41:30

Beat Stage Fright by Starting Small

Petra was terrible at public speaking and still doesn't love it. Her path forward was to start with very small, friendly audiences — your team, a company all-hands, or a local meetup of ~30 people — then grow the audience over time and always plant a friendly face in the front row for feedback.

Start in front of small, super-friendly audiences of five to ten people
Company all-hands or local product meetups are good early venues
Grow the audience size gradually over time
Get feedback from both peers (harsher) and strangers (spot storytelling gaps)

“the easiest way is to get in front of really small and super friendly audiences”
Petra · 41:30

#public-speaking#storytelling#confidence

Q&A· 1

Q&A17:00

Where to Start If You Want to Be a Better Coach

Asked where a new manager should begin, Petra advises starting with the development plan rather than a full competency assessment or a definition of a good PM. Even without those, the person usually already knows what they want to get better at, and the low-effort follow-up on that plan is what makes the difference.

Don't get paralyzed trying to first define what a 'good PM' is
Start with the development plan the person owns
People usually already know one area they want to improve (storytelling, prioritization, etc.)
Consistent follow-up takes little time from the lead but drives the results

“I usually advise people to start with the development plan because even if you have never done the assessment”
Petra · 17:00

#coaching#development-plan#management

Tool· 2

Tool31:30

Keep a List of Emotions Handy for 1:1s

People often find it hard to say how they really are, especially with a line manager. Petra keeps a list of around 30 emotions on hand and, when someone seems to need support, asks them to point to where they are on it and why — an easy way to open up a real conversation.

People struggle to articulate how they truly feel in a 1:1
A list of ~30 emotions gives them a concrete anchor to point to
Ask where they land and why, then offer help
Pairs well with a go-to list of coaching questions for unprepared 1:1s

“what I find super helpful is a list of emotions because people tend to find it really hard to talk about how they currently really…”
Petra · 31:30

#coaching#one-on-ones#emotions#tools

Tool43:30

Two Backstage Tricks for Pre-Talk Nerves

For the jitters right before a talk, Petra points to two physical tricks: the 'Superman pose' — standing tall and looking straight up — or a gorilla-style soft chest tap to raise your energy level. Do them backstage, plus keep friendly, respectful faces in the front row.

The Superman pose: stand tall looking straight up (helps many, not her favourite)
A soft gorilla-style chest tap bumps your energy level
Do these backstage, not where the audience can see
Find people you like and respect for the front row

“I think the two things that work well it's either the Superman pose”
Petra · 43:30

#public-speaking#nerves#tools

Takeaway· 5

Takeaway08:30

Product Is a Career, Not a Role

You can read every book, take every course, and read every newsletter, but you only get so far without actually doing the work. Getting good at product means years of trying, failing, and shipping, not a six-month sprint.

Courses and books only take you so far; hands-on practice is what makes you better
Improvement comes from failing and from doing things that succeed
Getting good takes years, not months
Product is a career with endless things to learn, not a single role

“I so often have said the sentence of it's not a role it's a career being in product”
Petra · 09:00

#career#product-management#learning

Takeaway20:00

Consistency Beats Intensity for People Development

Small, regular time investments in development beat big-bang 360-degree reviews. Monthly check-ins on a shared, colour-coded list of goals keep progress alive so the next performance review isn't a scramble to remember what was agreed.

Regular check-ins outperform the once-every-six-months review
Small weekly chunks apply to both the PM's learning and the lead's coaching time
A shared doc with concrete themes and a status colour-code per item keeps things on track
It's more pleasant and more likely to stick for both parties

“we all of us know consistency beats intensity”
Petra · 20:30

#coaching#feedback#development-plan

Takeaway22:30

Hire for Curiosity and Empathy — They're Hard to Coach

Some traits are far easier to hire for than to build in a corporate environment. Petra always screens for curiosity — the best PMs are interested in any topic — and for empathy, without which it's nearly impossible to help someone reach a decision-maker level.

Separate personality traits (hard to develop) from skills and know-how (coachable)
Curiosity is a top hiring filter: great PMs are curious about the world no matter the topic
Empathy is partly coachable but a baseline level must already exist
Skills like user interviewing and discovery can be developed later

“I think product people need to be curious about the world how it works about things no matter the topic”
Petra · 23:00

#hiring#curiosity#empathy#product-management

Takeaway37:30

Cut the Business Jargon — Speak to Hearts and Minds

We overuse business lingo until it becomes banner blindness that people tune out. Petra urges swapping three-letter abbreviations and overused terms for natural, sensory language, because stories that evoke feeling actually release hormones in the brain — but only when the words are natural.

Overused business terms create 'banner blindness' — people overhear them
Even 'product discovery' may need re-framing if a company is fed up with it
Natural language about smell, sense, and how life gets better triggers a brain response
Removing three-letter abbreviations is harder in practice than it sounds

“the other tip would be really make sure that you're using language that speaks to the heart and the minds of the people because we…”
Petra · 37:30

#storytelling#communication#jargon

Takeaway58:00

How to Tell If a Community Is Worth Your Time

Petra's benchmarks for a community worth sticking with: it helps you network with interesting people, you learn a real nugget every now and then, you can contribute and share what you know, you genuinely enjoy the people, and there's an actual level of activity — because too many communities are dead.

It helps you network and meet nice, interesting people
You learn something new every now and then — real nuggets, not daily noise
You can contribute: moderate, organize rituals, or share what you learned
You enjoy the people and there's genuine activity, not a dead forum

“I would say if it helps you with networking that is really something something good if you meet nice interesting people”
Petra · 58:00

“is there some level of activity in the community because there's too many dead ones out there”
Petra · 59:00

#community#networking#learning

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Community of Practice as People Development

Growing Into Public Speaking

Story as a Design Tool

The Five Ingredients of Coaching Product People

The PM Wheel

People & resources mentioned

People · 17

Resources · 34

Insights & moments

⚡Myth Buster· 1

You Don't Get Good at Storytelling Overnight

◆Hot Take· 4

Pick One Book and Study It for a Whole Year

Weak Storytelling Caps Your Career

A Community of Practice Is the Cheapest Way to Develop People

Don't Be the Center of Your Community

✶Explainer· 2

Why Non-Product Managers Struggle to Lead PMs

Beat Stage Fright by Starting Small

?Q&A· 1

Where to Start If You Want to Be a Better Coach

✦Tool· 2

Keep a List of Emotions Handy for 1:1s

Two Backstage Tricks for Pre-Talk Nerves

▲Takeaway· 5

Product Is a Career, Not a Role

Consistency Beats Intensity for People Development

Hire for Curiosity and Empathy — They're Hard to Coach

Cut the Business Jargon — Speak to Hearts and Minds

How to Tell If a Community Is Worth Your Time

Myth Buster· 1

Hot Take· 4

Explainer· 2

Q&A· 1

Tool· 2

Takeaway· 5