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25 January 2024

Geoffrey Moore on finding your beachhead, crossing the chasm, and dominating a market

8Frameworks
15Insights

Episode overview

Geoffrey Moore explains why B2B startups cross the chasm by concentrating on a narrowly defined beachhead where they can become the clear leader, rather than scattering customers across unrelated segments. He distinguishes four adoption-stage playbooks—early market, bowling alley, tornado, and Main Street—and shows how each requires different customers, sales motions, and product maturity. The discussion also covers compelling reasons to buy, marquee and peer references, venture funding, product-led growth, and entrepreneurship as a vehicle for meaningful impact.

Key ideas

  • Choose a beachhead that is big enough to matter, small enough to lead, and aligned with the company’s crown jewels.
  • Pragmatists require credible references from peers; visionary customers generally cannot serve as those references.
  • Define a segment by geography, industry, profession, and a compelling use case, then expand through adjacent segments.
  • Use a project model in the early market, a repeatable solution model in the bowling alley, a market-share land grab in the tornado, and expansion on Main Street.
  • During the chasm, lead with the customer’s urgent problem and domain knowledge rather than a product demo or founder vision.
  • A startup has crossed the chasm when it has become a viable going concern that can survive without another venture round.
  • Discounting does not reduce the adoption risk behind a chasm purchase and can make the offering appear riskier.
  • Software entrepreneurs should pursue meaningful impact after securing a good living, because their ability to build scalable solutions is scarce.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Sales5 steps

Compelling Reason to Buy (Not to Sell)

In the bowling alley it is never about you — close the laptop and collect problem domain knowledge.

Read →
Strategy5 steps

The Beachhead Segment Formula

Pick a first market that is big enough to matter, small enough to lead, and fits your crown jewels.

Read →
Strategy4 steps

The Bowling Alley Adjacency Expansion

Grow segment by segment along adjacencies — same customer new use case, or same use case new customer.

Read →
Marketing3 steps

The Chasm Positioning Formula

Technology leaders who have specialised and committed to THIS problem — respect the incumbent, outclass the peers.

Read →
Marketing5 steps

The Four Go-To-Market Playbooks

Early Market, Bowling Alley, Tornado, Main Street — each has its own playbook, and mixing them backfires.

Read →
Sales4 steps

The Marquee Customer and the 10th Executive Sponsor

Before you cross the chasm, win one famous logo — by finding the one exec in ten who wants to leapfrog.

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Finance4 steps

The Value-State Test for Crossing the Chasm

VC money buys a change in your company's value state — you have crossed when you no longer need the next round.

Read →
Innovation3 steps

Trapped Value and the 10% Capture Rule

Find the pool of value your technology unlocks — you keep roughly 10% of what you release.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 8

  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    “today my guest is Jeffrey Moore”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Geoffrey MooreCoinedJeffrey is the author of maybe the most influential and important book on go to market ever written crossing the chasm

    “Jeffrey is the author of maybe the most influential and important book on go to market ever written crossing the chasm”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Dylan FieldMentionsthat's something Dylan's really good out is trusting his intuition and gut

    “Dylan basic and this team drove all the way back”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
  • Steve JobsMentionsSteve Jobs is just uh the bar he held for the company and for technical talent and for excellence was not uh wavering.

    “the Visionary is Steve Jobs is the way you represented it”

    ▶ Watch at ~33:00approx.
  • Andy GroveCoinedBusiness leader cited for distinguishing competency from motivation.

    “Andy G used to call it the 10x effect”

    ▶ Watch at ~35:00approx.
  • April DunfordCoinedApril Dunford was on this podcast and she has this book that she put out recently called the sales pitch

    “April Dunford was on this podcast and she has this book that she put out recently called the sales pitch”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:00approx.
  • Martin CasadoMentionsyou had this very public exchange with Martin cassado he's a partner at Andre and harwitz

    “you had this very public exchange with Martin cassado he's a partner at Andre and harwitz”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:13:30approx.
  • Charles DarwinMentionswe have to have some degree of and Darwin spotted this some degree of kind of random number generator in our makeup

    “this whole darwi the big bang and the darwinian model it's becom increasingly credible”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:21:30approx.

Resources · 30

  • Crossing the ChasmCoinedbook · Geoffrey Moore

    “Jeffrey is the author of maybe the most influential and important book on go to market ever written crossing the chasm”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • WorkOSRecommendscompany · WorkOS, Inc.

    “this episode is brought to you by work OS”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
  • CommandBarRecommendssoftware · CommandBar

    “to try out command bar you can sign up at commandbar docomond is per month for any plan”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
  • AuthKitCoinedsoftware · WorkOS

    “workos also recently launched authkit a complete authentication and user Management Service”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
  • Auth0Mentionssoftware · Okta

    “it's essentially a modern alternative to op zero but with better pricing and more flexible apis”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
  • AWSUsescompany · Amazon

    “did you know that the CIA used AWS”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • CIAUsescompany

    “did you know that the CIA used AWS”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
  • OracleMentionscompany · Oracle Corporation

    “if you're like Oracle and databases you know you're 40 years in you're still the leader”

    ▶ Watch at ~7:30approx.
  • VerizonMentionscompany

    “it's really important you did it with apple or you did it with you know Verizon or you did it with you know Mercedes”

    ▶ Watch at ~11:30approx.
  • AppleMentionscompany · Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, and Ronald Wayne

    “it's really important you did it with apple or you did it with you know Verizon or you did it with you know Mercedes”

    ▶ Watch at ~11:30approx.
  • Mercedes-BenzMentionscompany

    “it's really important you did it with apple or you did it with you know Verizon or you did it with you know Mercedes”

    ▶ Watch at ~11:30approx.
  • Inside the TornadoCoinedbook · Geoffrey Moore

    “there's a whole Playbook around around doing that which was in a book called Inside the Tornado”

    ▶ Watch at ~14:30approx.
  • UberMentionscompany · Uber

    “we've had taxis for a 100 years but Uber is an incredibly valuable thing”

    ▶ Watch at ~15:00approx.
  • DocumentumMentionscompany

    “the one that we wrote about first was this company called documentum”

    ▶ Watch at ~17:00approx.
  • CodaUsessoftware · Coda

    “they ended up working very closely with Kota”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:00approx.
  • ChatGPTMentionssoftware · OpenAI

    “if you've invented chat GPT and now you're saying but I am going to solve the third grade math problem”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:00approx.
  • FigmaUsessoftware · Figma

    “they started using figma and then on the drive home they called and like it doesn't work anymore”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
  • Sales PitchCoinedbook · April Dunford

    “April Dunford was on this podcast and she has this book that she put out recently called the sales pitch”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:00approx.
  • ArcadeRecommendssoftware · Arcade

    “head to arcade. software Lenny and get 50% off your first 3 months”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:00approx.
  • SalesforceMentionscompany · Salesforce

    “if you're at Salesforce a bdr would call you”

    ▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
  • OpenAIMentionscompany

    “we should be thinking about things like open AI with Microsoft and co-pilot”

    ▶ Watch at ~59:30approx.
  • Microsoft CopilotMentionssoftware · Microsoft

    “if you go to chat to to Microsoft co-pilot you're on Main Street”

    ▶ Watch at ~59:30approx.
  • Microsoft 365Mentionssoftware · Microsoft

    “it's kind of like just an add-on to teams or to to your whole Office 365 Suite”

    ▶ Watch at ~59:30approx.
  • Microsoft TeamsMentionssoftware · Microsoft

    “it's kind of like just an add-on to teams or to to your whole Office 365 Suite”

    ▶ Watch at ~59:30approx.
  • Khan AcademyMentionscompany · Sal Khan

    “if you're Sal Con and you have the Con Academy”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.
  • The Infinite StaircaseCoinedbook · Geoffrey Moore

    “your last book is very unlike all your other books it's called the infinite staircase”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:20:30approx.
  • LinkedInUseswebsite · LinkedIn

    “I'm on LinkedIn and and I have a Blog on LinkedIn”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:24:00approx.
  • Apple PodcastsRecommendssoftware · Apple Inc.

    “you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:24:00approx.
  • SpotifyRecommendssoftware · Spotify

    “you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:24:00approx.
  • Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny podcast.com”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:24:30approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 2

Myth Buster41:30

A Compelling Reason to Buy Is Not a Reason to Sell

Founders confuse a compelling reason to buy with a compelling reason to sell. The reason to buy lives in the customer's world, it's their painful problem, not your pitch, demo, or vision. In the bowling alley the sale is never about you; the customer wants to talk about their pain, not hear your story.

  • The compelling reason to buy is the customer's pain, not your pitch.
  • Founders wrongly respond by making a sexier demo or a better deck.
  • In the bowling alley the conversation is never about you; it's about their problem.

“it's the compelling reason to buy is not a compelling reason to sell which people often think about is the pitch”

Geoffrey Moore · 41:30

“in the bowling alley it's never about you”

Geoffrey Moore · 42:00
#sales#compelling-reason-to-buy#pain-point#positioning
Myth Buster28:00

Why Discounting Before You Cross the Chasm Backfires

Moore lists discounting as one of the seven deadly sins of crossing the chasm. Chasm decisions are risk-bearing, and a discount doesn't reduce risk; it can even increase it if the vendor claws back support or scope. His analogy: you don't want a coupon for $9.99 heart surgery this Saturday only.

  • Chasm buying decisions are risk-bearing, not price-sensitive.
  • Discounting doesn't reduce risk and can raise it via reduced support or scope changes.
  • Because the problem is painful, use value pricing, not discounts.

“if you have to have heart surgery you don't want a coupon that says heart surgery $9.99 this Saturday only”

Geoffrey Moore · 28:30

“but chasms are based on risk bearing decisions”

Geoffrey Moore · 1:03:30
#pricing#discounting#seven-deadly-sins#risk

Hot Take· 5

Hot Take27:00

You Don't Need VC Just Because You Want to Do a Startup

Moore argues most founders should aim for cash-flow breakeven on their own money. There are only two legitimate reasons to raise venture capital: the technology is too expensive to self-fund (like GPUs and training large models), or the category is about to catch fire and you can't afford to move slowly.

  • Default to reaching cash-flow breakeven on your own money, no VC.
  • Reason one to raise: the technology is too expensive to self-fund.
  • Reason two to raise: the category will catch fire too soon and you can't dither for years.

“I would try to get to cash flow break even on my own money with no Venture Capital”

Geoffrey Moore · 27:00

“but just because you want to do a startup doesn't mean you need Venture Capital”

Geoffrey Moore · 27:00
#fundraising#venture-capital#bootstrapping#startups
Hot Take42:00

Shut the Laptop: How to Sell in the Bowling Alley

Moore's blunt bowling-alley sales rule: shut the laptop and don't open it. Entrepreneurs want to demo, tell their story, and share their vision, but the pragmatist customer doesn't care. You open by naming a serious problem you've seen in their industry and let them talk, because the gold you're collecting is problem-domain knowledge.

  • Bowling-alley rule: shut the laptop, don't open it, don't lead with a demo.
  • Open by naming a serious problem in their industry and asking if it's true.
  • The real prize from the conversation is problem-domain knowledge.

“shut the goddamn laptop just don't don't open it”

Geoffrey Moore · 42:30
#sales#bowling-alley#discovery#pragmatists
Hot Take1:11:30

Product-Led Growth Can't Cross the Chasm

Moore argues you cannot cross the chasm with product-led growth, because crossing requires guiding pragmatists through a high-risk decision, not just seeding a product. PLG shines instead in the land-and-expand phases where the next purchase carries very low risk, which is why every PLG company, Atlassian included, eventually builds a sales team.

  • PLG can't cross the chasm; low-risk self-serve motion doesn't move pragmatists through a risky decision.
  • PLG excels at land-and-expand, a classically Main Street play with very low incremental risk.
  • Every product-led growth company ends up building a sales team, including Atlassian, to win enterprise deals.

“to cross the chasm you cannot cross the chasm with product like growth you can't”

Geoffrey Moore · 1:12:00

“every product Le Growth Company ends up building a sales team 100% of them including atlassian”

Geoffrey Moore · 1:12:30
#product-led-growth#sales#crossing-the-chasm#b2b
Hot Take1:16:30

Crossing the Chasm Is a B2B Model, Not for Consumer Apps

Reflecting on what he's changed his mind about, Moore says the model is really optimized for B2B markets because it assumes federated decision-making around high-risk purchases. Consumer computing, which came out of nowhere with Google and the iPhone, doesn't fit, so if you're building a consumer app, don't spend time studying Crossing the Chasm.

  • The model is optimized for B2B: federated decisions around high-risk buying.
  • Consumer computing (Google, iPhone, mobile apps) rewrote the rules and doesn't fit.
  • Consumer-app founders shouldn't study Crossing the Chasm; B2B founders still should.

“this is a model that it's really optimized for B2B markets because it's because it implies Federated decision making around highrisk buying decisions”

Geoffrey Moore · 1:16:30

“if you're building a consumer app don't spend time studying crossing the CM”

Geoffrey Moore · 1:18:30
#b2b#consumer#changed-my-mind#crossing-the-chasm
Hot Take1:19:30

Don't Aim to Be a Billionaire, Aim to Have an Impact

Moore closes with life advice: he wouldn't make becoming a billionaire the goal, since he can't even imagine what a billionaire does with the money. Make a great living, then aim for impact. Founders able to build original software companies are a scarce resource and shouldn't waste it.

  • Becoming a billionaire is a poor goal; the money stops making sense past a point.
  • Make a great living first, then focus on having an impact.
  • Founders who can build original software companies are a scarce resource; don't waste it.

“and I wouldn't make becoming a billionaire my goal I mean frankly I don't even know what a billionaire would even do with their money”

Geoffrey Moore · 1:19:30

“if you're gifted enough to be able to start a software company and do something original you're a scarce resource so don't don't waste it”

Geoffrey Moore · 1:20:00
#life-advice#founders#purpose#meaning

Explainer· 2

Explainer00:00

The Bonfire Analogy: Why You Can't Light a Log Directly

Moore uses a fire-starting analogy to explain why chasing any customer you can find is self-defeating. You can't light a log by running a match under it; you start with kindling in one concentrated spot until it catches. The same is true of a beachhead market, which is why adjacency to your next target matters so much.

  • In the chasm, the instinct is to take any customer for revenue, but that never starts a fire.
  • You start a fire with a little kindling held in one place until it catches, then let it spread.
  • Adjacency matters: if the kindling and the log are in different rooms, the fire never jumps.

“it's like taking a match and running it back and forth under a log it's it's not to like the log so how do you…”

Geoffrey Moore · 00:00

“and that's why adjacency is so important if you light the fire the piece of kindling is here but the log is you know in…”

Geoffrey Moore · 00:00
#beachhead#go-to-market#focus#crossing-the-chasm
Explainer48:30

What VC Money Actually Buys: Changing Your Value State

Moore explains what a venture capitalist is really purchasing: not demos or great hires, but a change in your company's value state so the next round is raised at a 2-3x higher valuation. If you spend the money and don't change that value state, you're forced to raise flat or down, and the investor loses.

  • VC money is meant to change your company's value state before the next round.
  • The goal is for the next investor to value you 2-3x higher than today.
  • Brilliant demos and great hires don't matter if the value state didn't move.

“what they're buying from you with this money is I want you to use this money to change the state of your company such that…”

Geoffrey Moore · 49:00

“so basically the purpose of this money is to change the value state of your company”

Geoffrey Moore · 49:30
#venture-capital#fundraising#valuation#milestones

Story· 2

Story17:00

How Documentum Spread From Pharma to Wall Street

Moore tells the story of Documentum, a document-management database that crossed the chasm by starting in pharma, where mismanaging 500,000-page drug approvals cost real money. From there it moved into adjacent segments (petrochemical, oil and gas leases, Wall Street financing) because each use case was close enough to reuse the last.

  • Pharma was the beachhead: new drug approvals were 500,000-page documents that were hard to manage.
  • Each day of mishandled approval cost a day of patent life, worth roughly $1-2M per day.
  • The product then expanded into petrochemical manuals, oil-and-gas leases, and Wall Street financing via adjacent use cases.

“started with the pharmaceutical industry because Pharma said well new drug approvals are 500,000 page documents and they really really really hard to manage and…”

Geoffrey Moore · 17:00

“the patent day of patent life is worth about a million or2 million dollars a day this is a bad this is a bad situation”

Geoffrey Moore · 17:00
#case-study#beachhead#adjacency#b2b
Story29:00

Figma Drove Two Hours Back to Fix Coda's Wi-Fi

Lenny recounts how Figma, obsessed with keeping the Coda (Krypton) team happy, set them up in person and then drove one to two hours back when the product 'broke,' only to find it was a downed Wi-Fi connection. The point: you need one company that doesn't just think you're cool but genuinely loves you, a radiating reference who talks about you when you're not in the room.

  • Figma set up the Coda team in person, then drove back hours when they said it broke.
  • The 'break' was a downed Wi-Fi connection, but the obsession with the customer was the point.
  • You want one company that loves the product, a radiating reference who evangelizes without you present.

“on the drive home they called and like it doesn't work anymore something's broken and they already home and Dylan basic and this team drove…”

Lenny · 29:30

“you need to find one company that just loves you it's not like we this is cool it's like I love this product I would…”

Lenny · 30:30
#customer-obsession#references#case-study#product-market-fit

Takeaway· 4

Takeaway09:30

"We Believe What You Believe" vs "We Need What You Have"

Moore captures the buying-psychology shift across the chasm in one line. Before the chasm, visionaries buy because they share your belief in the future. After the chasm, pragmatists aren't sure about you at all; they buy because they need what you have to solve a painful problem.

  • Visionaries (pre-chasm) buy on shared belief: 'we believe what you believe.'
  • Pragmatists (post-chasm) buy on need: 'we need what you have,' despite doubts about you.
  • The whole sales motion has to shift from selling your vision to solving their problem.

“before the chasm the customers you work with are people who say we believe what you believe”

Geoffrey Moore · 09:30

“we need what you have which is how you sell the pragmatists that's kind of the the shift”

Geoffrey Moore · 10:00
#sales#pragmatists#visionaries#positioning
Takeaway19:30

The Beachhead Formula: Big Enough to Matter, Small Enough to Lead

Moore gives the single takeaway formula for choosing a target segment: it must be big enough to matter, small enough for you to lead (become the big fish), and a good fit with your crown jewels. He adds that a real segment shares the same geography, industry, and profession, because that's who talks to each other.

  • Big enough to matter: room to grow toward ~$100M in a five-year window.
  • Small enough to lead: not a billion-dollar segment, or you can't be the big fish.
  • A true segment is same geography, same industry, same profession (peers who actually talk).

“you want to have a Target segment that is big enough to matter small enough to lead and a good fit with your crown jewels…”

Geoffrey Moore · 19:30
#beachhead#segmentation#icp#focus
Takeaway06:30

A Lighthouse Customer Doesn't Make a Company, It Makes a Story

Before crossing the chasm, Moore says power comes from a lighthouse (marquee) customer that puts you on the map. It doesn't build a real business by itself, but a name like 'the CIA used AWS' gives you a story and makes you visible enough to attract the pragmatists and partners you need next.

  • Early power comes from a lighthouse customer that makes you visible.
  • A marquee win doesn't make a company, but it makes a story people repeat.
  • The customer should be famous enough that the press and prospects have heard of them.

“can you get one or more customers who kind of put you on the map and and they go whoa did you know that the…”

Geoffrey Moore · 06:30

“it doesn't make a company but it but it makes a story”

Geoffrey Moore · 06:30
#marquee-customer#credibility#early-market#b2b
Takeaway50:00

You've Crossed the Chasm When You No Longer Need to Raise

Moore's test for having crossed the chasm is financial independence: you don't have to raise more venture capital. Crossing turns you into a 'going concern' with a loyal customer base and partner ecosystem. What you actually care about is being cash-flow positive so you can keep operating on your own timeline, not GAAP profit.

  • You've crossed the chasm when you no longer have to raise more venture capital.
  • A 'going concern' has a loyal customer base and a partner ecosystem bringing new deals.
  • The real metric is cash-flow positive, not GAAP accounting profit.

“you know you've crossed the chasm when you say I don't have to raise any more Venture Capital now”

Geoffrey Moore · 50:30

“all you really care about is cash flow positive”

Geoffrey Moore · 51:30
#crossing-the-chasm#going-concern#cash-flow#fundraising