Ayo Omojola (Carbon Health, Cash App)14 May 2023

Frameworks for product differentiation, team building, and thinking from first principles

5Frameworks

15Insights

Episode overview

Ayo Omojola explains how Cash App's success compounded strong design, fraud expertise, consumer-first trade-offs, talent density, and a meaningful differentiator: instant access to money. He describes building effective internal startups with small, senior, trusted teams and hiring founders for their ambition and unusually high output, while acknowledging their higher attrition. The conversation also explores first-principles execution in regulated industries, where teams must interrogate assumptions, master operational details, and verify precisely what constraints require.

Key ideas

Differentiation must be better than existing alternatives in a way that matters to the end user, while also supporting viable economics and execution.
Cash App's success resulted from the compound effect of many best-in-class capabilities rather than one isolated tactic.
Small, tightly knit, senior teams reduce communication overhead, build trust, and can reach meaningful scale before adding substantial headcount.
Hiring founders can raise a team's output and candor, but these highly ambitious employees often leave after two or three years.
Relationship-driven hiring works over long horizons: identify exceptional people early, help them without immediate expectation, and create the conditions to work together later.
In complex or regulated domains, the person executing a project must become the expert and continue investigating until reaching the real constraint.
Use trust but verify: replace secondhand claims about what cannot be done with contracts, regulations, evidence, and an explicit account of what would actually break.
Healthcare founders need crisp use cases and access to the actual decision-makers because distribution and outcomes are often network-dependent.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Mindset4 steps

Don't Stop Until You Reach the End

Distrust expert answers and drive every problem to ground-truth yourself

Read →

Leadership3 steps

Hire Founders (Eyes Open to the Costs)

Recruit ex-founders for outsized output and truth-telling, budgeting for high attrition

Read →

Leadership3 steps

Hire the People That People Pick

Win great hires over months by adding value first, long before there's a role

Read →

Leadership3 steps

Startup-Within-a-Company Team Design

Build new things inside big companies with small, senior, trusted teams and manufactured discipline

Read →

Strategy4 steps

The Differentiation Stack

Four ordered tests a product must pass to matter, not just exist

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 8

Ayo OmojolaMentionsIO co-created and scaled Square's popular Cash Card alongside the hugely popular cash app he's currently Chief product officer at Carbon Health
“today my guest is Ayo omanjula”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Ayo OmojolaCoinedIO co-created and scaled Square's popular Cash Card alongside the hugely popular cash app he's currently Chief product officer at Carbon Health
“IO co-created and scaled Square's popular Cash Card alongside the hugely popular cash app”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Jack DorseyMentionsThis is something that Jack, our CEO, talks about a lot.
“with Jack support was just really firewalls from the rest of square”
▶ Watch at ~8:30approx.
Sarah FriarMentionsa Sarah Friar thing from Square she's just you know really really disciplined
“a Sarah Friar thing from Square she's just you know really really disciplined”
▶ Watch at ~18:30approx.
Russell FriendMentionsthis guy Russell friend who now works at Carbon who had he introduced me to like a third of my network in Silicon Valley
“this guy Russell friend who now works at Carbon who had he introduced me to like a third of my network in Silicon Valley”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
Eren BaliCoinedhe was founder of udemy and now he says come to call carton Health his name is Aaron
“he was founder of udemy and now he says come to call carton Health his name is Aaron”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
Robert AndersenMentionsthe head of design catch up this guy Robert Anderson is amazing designer
“the head of design catch up this guy Robert Anderson is amazing designer”
▶ Watch at ~32:30approx.

Resources · 33

Cash CardCoinedproduct · Block
“IO co-created and scaled Square's popular Cash Card”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
PinwheelMentionscompany
“he's on on the board of pinwheel”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Carbon HealthMentionscompany
“he's currently Chief product officer at Carbon Health one of the biggest and fastest growing Health tech companies in the world”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
SquareMentionscompany · Block, Inc.
“IO co-created and scaled Square's popular Cash Card”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
MercuryMentionscompany · Mercury
“he's an angel investor in companies like Mercury bank Fair modern Treasury”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Modern TreasuryMentionscompany
“he's an angel investor in companies like Mercury bank Fair modern Treasury”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
FairMentionscompany
“he's an angel investor in companies like Mercury bank Fair modern Treasury”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Microsoft ClarityRecommendstool · Microsoft
“stop guessing get clarity check out Clarity at clarity.microsoft.com”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
EcoRecommendsproduct · Eco, Inc.
“go to eco.com Lenny sign up for an onboard and find out why it isn't”
▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
QuoraUseswebsite
“you answered over a hundred questions on quora about people trying to ship stuff and mail stuff”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
MailformCoinedproduct · Ayo Omojola and his brother
“so we built this thing called mail form”
▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
LobMentionscompany
“it was right around when wob was founded uh which is obviously like this Printing and mailing API”
▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
Cash AppMentionsproduct · Block, Inc.
“let's talk about your cash app experience which I imagine was a pretty transformative period in your career”
▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
Apple CashMentionsproduct · Apple
“I think that kind of changed in 2017 when people know Apple cash Etc kind of came out”
▶ Watch at ~9:30approx.
VenmoMentionssoftware
“when someone says hey why are you better than venmo I'd be like try and send me a dollar that I can use now”
▶ Watch at ~13:30approx.
BlockMentionscompany
“you mentioned in passing when we were preparing for this that block was trying to kill the cash app”
▶ Watch at ~14:00approx.
UdemyCoinedcompany · Eren Bali and cofounders
“he was founder of udemy”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
Silicon ValleyMentionsplace · Mike Judge, John Altschuler, and Dave Krinsky
“he introduced me to like a third of my network in Silicon Valley”
▶ Watch at ~19:30approx.
Y CombinatorMentionscompany · Paul Graham and co-founders
“I had this experience going through YC where and and just like kind of growing up in my career in Silicon Valley”
▶ Watch at ~23:00approx.
LMNTRecommendsproduct · LMNT
“to give it a shot go to drink lmnt.com Lenny and you'll get a free sample pack with any purchase”
▶ Watch at ~28:00approx.
FigmaMentionssoftware · Figma
“I get some sketch files maybe PDFs pre-figma”
▶ Watch at ~32:30approx.
Chase SapphireMentionsproduct · JPMorgan Chase
“it had been on the Chase Sapphire for you for a few years but it wasn't on mainstream cards yet”
▶ Watch at ~33:30approx.
SlackUsessoftware · Slack Technologies
“I'm in the middle of a slack with with a colleague who's like why are you asking this question”
▶ Watch at ~38:00approx.
Children of Time trilogyRecommendsbook · Adrian Tchaikovsky
“three body problem children of time trilogy and uh Stormlight Archive”
▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
The Stormlight ArchiveRecommendsbook · Brandon Sanderson
“three body problem children of time trilogy and uh Stormlight Archive”
▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
Three-Body ProblemRecommendsbook · Liu Cixin
“three body problem children of time trilogy and uh Stormlight Archive”
▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
A Fire Upon the DeepMentionsbook · Vernor Vinge
“I'm reading an epic sci-fi book right now called the fire fire in the Deep”
▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
War of the WorldsRecommendstv show
“War of the Worlds was exceptional”
▶ Watch at ~48:00approx.
SuccessionRecommendstv show · Jesse Armstrong
“I also love succession but I'm still I haven't gotten through season two yet”
▶ Watch at ~48:30approx.
No Context SuccessionMentionswebsite
“there's an amazing um Twitter account called No context succession”
▶ Watch at ~49:00approx.
UberRecommendscompany · Uber
“if you're doing anything local where you're just like taking something point to point Uber can do it for you”
▶ Watch at ~50:00approx.
KunleUseswebsite · Ayo Omojola
“I write at conley.kunle.app”
▶ Watch at ~51:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take08:00

Cash App's success was 10 things done right, not one

Asked what Cash App did most right, Ayo pushes back on the single-cause narrative: it was roughly 10 things all executed best-in-class at once, including insane talent density, focus, fraud strength, design, and a consumer-first hero customer. He argues the differential success came from the compound effect of all of them, not any single feature. He warns that success stories are often just someone reading out their 'lottery ticket number.'

Cash App was around 10 best-in-class things at once: talent density, focus, fraud, design
In ~100% of trade-offs the consumer's needs came first, which made others in the company angry
Doing only one of those things well might have worked, but the compound effect is what made it differentially successful
Beware success narratives, they can just be someone's 'lottery ticket number'

“the thing cash app did right was like 10 things not one”
Ayo Omojola · 08:00

“a lot of times when people describe their success to you what they're really saying is like this is my lottery ticket number”
Ayo Omojola · 10:30

#cash-app#product#consumer-apps

Hot Take15:30

The 'startup within a startup' is fake because there's no existential fear

Ayo argues the idea of a startup inside a big company is fake: real startups worry about making payroll, while internal teams simply don't. Without that existential fear, it's easy to just ask for more resources, and if leadership is good at acquiring them you get headcount that outpaces the project's actual success. He says small teams beat big ones for genuinely new efforts, forcing thoughtfulness about milestones and value.

Real startups worry about paying their people; internal teams don't have that fear
No existential fear makes it easy to over-acquire resources
Headcount can grow to a size that doesn't match the project's real success or potential
Small teams beat big ones for doing genuinely new things inside a large org

“there's this thing people say about like hey this startup within Starbucks I think it's fake and the reason I think it's fake is because…”
Ayo Omojola · 15:30

#team-building#startups#intrapreneurship

Hot Take42:00

In healthcare, outcomes are network-dependent, not merit-dependent

Ayo's advice to founders entering healthcare: very often success is network-dependent rather than about the merit of the thing itself. Companies exist because founders know the CEO of every major payer and can get a deal or data unavailable elsewhere. There's enormous leverage in knowing the one person whose finger is on the button, because people won't spend social capital on intros and much of healthcare progress is just waiting for a promised introduction.

Healthcare success is often network-dependent, not merit-dependent
Some companies exist purely because founders know every major payer's CEO
Carbon Health avoided this by going direct-to-consumer, not selling to payers or employers
Huge leverage comes from reaching the exact decision-maker vs networking your way in
People are reluctant to spend social capital on intros, so progress waits on promised introductions

“there's just so much leverage in knowing the person in the place who actually has their finger on the button versus trying to like Network…”
Ayo Omojola · 44:00

#healthcare#founders#networking#b2b

Explainer· 3

Explainer11:00

The four bars a product must clear: different, better, mattering, and in a domain that matters

Ayo lays out his test for real differentiation. Being different is not enough because different is easy; being better is not enough because you can just charge more. It has to be better in a way that matters to the end user or buyer, and it has to be in a domain that matters economically, otherwise you have made art that is hard to scale.

Different is trivial: just look at what exists and build something else
Better is trivial too: make it better and charge more money
It must be better in a way that matters to the end user or buyer
It must be in a domain that matters, or it is just hard-to-scale art
Then the economics and the whole pipeline of building, shipping, and talking about it must work

“being different is not enough because very easy to build a thing that's different from what exists today because you just have to look at…”
Ayo Omojola · 00:00

#differentiation#product-strategy#positioning

Explainer23:00

Why Ayo hires ex-founders, and the two costs that come with it

Ayo deliberately hires former founders because standard sourcing algorithms screen out anyone who doesn't fit the big-tech-plus-elite-school box before a hiring manager ever sees them. He even wrote job posts inviting people whose startups had failed to apply. The upside is a differentially higher-output, founder-dense team that levels everyone up; the two costs are that founders instantly spot and call out any waste or dysfunction, and that you can usually only keep them two to two-and-a-half years before they leave to build something.

Sourcing algorithms filter to big-tech companies and certain schools upstream of the hiring manager
He invited failed founders to apply directly in job postings
Founder-dense teams are differentially higher output and level up the whole team
Cost 1: founders immediately see and call out organizational waste
Cost 2: differentially higher attrition, usually only 2 to 2.5 years

“if you've been a Founder before even if your Starbucks failed please apply to this”
Ayo Omojola · 25:00

“if there's any waste or [ __ ] in your organization like they [ __ ] see it right away and call it out”
Ayo Omojola · 25:30

#hiring#founders#team-building

Explainer34:30

An 'expert' is usually just the most tenured person, so keep pushing to the end

Ayo warns that when you consult an expert, you're rarely reaching the single most expert person in the world; usually it's just the most tenured person in that domain, whose depth varies wildly. They'll give you what they believe to be true, not lying, but sometimes flatly wrong. So you can't stop until you keep pushing to the actual end, which is why being in a domain that matters is important, since that kind of relentless digging is expensive.

The 'expert' you reach is usually just the most tenured person, not the most knowledgeable
Tenure and depth of experience vary wildly from person to person
Their answer is what they believe to be true, sometimes sincerely and totally wrong
You have to keep pushing until you reach the real end
This deep digging is expensive, which is why the domain must matter

“usually an expert is the most tenured person in the world in the domain that you're questioning”
Ayo Omojola · 34:30

“you just have to keep pushing till you get to an answer”
Ayo Omojola · 35:30

#first-principles#product#expertise

Story· 4

Story05:00

How a print-and-mail side project taught Ayo SEO via Quora

Ayo and his brother built MailForm, a service that prints and mails a document to an address for you, after being frustrated by having to physically mail a Section 83(b) form. To grow it, he answered over 100 Quora questions from people trying to ship and mail things, using it as a content and SEO growth tactic rather than user research. The product still runs and is used by large delivery-tech companies to mail 1099s and W-2s.

MailForm lets you hand it a document and an address and it prints and mails it for you
The idea came from the pain of printing and mailing a Section 83(b) form
He answered 100+ Quora questions purely as an SEO/growth tactic to surface the product
It became a lasting content/SEO infrastructure that shaped his thinking
Big delivery-tech companies still use it to mail 1099 and W-2 forms

“this is the way that I actually learned how to do SEO was”
Ayo Omojola · 05:00

#seo#growth#side-project#startups

Story13:00

'Instant' was the differentiator: try and send me a dollar I can use now

For years, Cash App's cut-through differentiator versus Venmo was that money was instant everywhere: instant cash out, instant card issuance, instant proceeds from selling stocks or Bitcoin, with no waiting period. When someone asked why Cash App was better than Venmo, Ayo's answer was to have them send him a dollar he could immediately spend, which only one app allowed. He notes 'instant' is durable because much of the world stays asynchronous for no real reason.

Instant showed up everywhere: cash out, card issuance, stock sales, Bitcoin sales
For 3-4 years Cash App was the fastest and lowest-cost way to move money between US bank accounts
The concept of instant is lasting because many processes are asynchronous for no real reason
The killer demo: send me a dollar I can use now, and only one app could do it

“when someone says hey why are you better than venmo I'd be like try and send me a dollar that I can use now and…”
Ayo Omojola · 13:30

#cash-app#differentiation#fintech

Story32:00

Touring card factories to make the Cash Card physically different

The first Cash Card designs came back from vendors looking unusable, so Brian asked Ayo to simply go figure out how to get it made. Ayo spent a long time visiting card-manufacturing factories around the country, discovering laser engraving, whose machines have thousands of setting combinations that each produce a different physical effect. They tested easily a thousand combinations of plastic, overlay, paper, envelope, and finish before shipping a card unlike anything else on the market.

Early vendor-produced Cash Card samples were unusable, so Ayo went to solve manufacturing directly
He visited card factories to find new tech and possibilities
Laser-engraving machines have thousands of settings, each creating a different texture
They tested ~1,000 combinations of plastic, overlay, paper, envelope, and finish
The result was a physical card object unlike anything else in the market

“I ended up spending a long time just going to different card manufacturing factories around the country to figure out like having cards get made”
Ayo Omojola · 33:00

#cash-app#product#differentiation#manufacturing

Story36:00

Asking the 'annoying' questions: the null payment-reason field

Ayo intentionally asks questions people think don't matter when optimizing something for the first time, because you have to re-measure, re-instrument, and look at data 15 different ways from scratch. His example: a payment-reason database field left null for patient balances, which breaks silently across 120+ clinics where many humans can press pay for exceptional reasons you'd never detect. He was mid-Slack insisting they just put 'residual balance' in the field if that's what it's for.

Optimizing something the first time means re-measuring and re-instrumenting from scratch
You look at data ~15 different ways and chase down every incongruence
A payment-reason field left null for patient balances hides all other exceptional reasons
With 120+ clinics and many people able to press pay, the null value becomes unreliable
The fix he pushed: actually store 'residual balance' in the field

“I just need us to put residual balance in that field if that's what it's for that's all I'm asking”
Ayo Omojola · 38:00

#data#product#healthcare#rigor

Q&A· 1

Q&A49:30

Ayo's favorite interview question tests for introspection

Ayo's favorite interview question is two-sided: tell me something you did that worked out but not for the reason you thought, or a good decision that didn't work versus a bad decision that did. The point isn't the story but teasing out introspection, whether the candidate reflects on their decisions, understands why they worked or failed, and folds that back into their model to make better decisions.

The question asks for a good decision that failed or a bad decision that worked
A variant: something that worked out but not for the reason you expected
The real target is introspection and reflectiveness, not the anecdote itself
He wants to see whether people update their mental model from outcomes

“tell me something you did that worked out but not for the reason that you thought it would work”
Ayo Omojola · 49:30

#hiring#interviewing

Tool· 1

Tool50:00

Shipping hack: use Uber to send something across town

Drawing on his mailing expertise, Ayo's biggest shipping hack is that for anything local and point-to-point, Uber can deliver it for you. He recently sent someone cookies this way: a driver showed up at his house, he handed over the cookies, and a friend texted thanks a couple of hours later.

For local point-to-point deliveries, Uber can carry the item for you
He used it to send a friend cookies across town
A driver picked up from his house and delivered within hours

“point to point Uber can do it for you like I I literally set somebody cookies recently”
Ayo Omojola · 50:30

#logistics#hacks#shipping

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway17:00

A small, senior, trusted team that earned scale before headcount

Ayo credits Cash App's early success to a small, tightly knit senior team, roughly 11-12 people for about a year, whose smallness meant less communication overhead and whose tenure meant much more trust. Leadership trusted them to operate rather than micromanage them to ship faster. Under Sarah Friar's financial discipline, the team had to justify every new hire, so they built real scale and a real business before they had real headcount.

The team was about 11-12 people for roughly the first year
Small size reduces communication overhead; seniority builds trust
Leadership trusted the team to operate instead of pushing 'ship faster'
Headcount discipline (a Sarah Friar hallmark) forced strong justification for every hire
They had real scale and a real business before real headcount

“we had real scale in a real business before we had a real head count”
Ayo Omojola · 18:30

#team-building#hiring#leadership

Takeaway28:30

You hire the people they pick when: add value first so they choose you later

Ayo's top hiring principle is that you get the people they pick when, meaning the gap between first meeting someone and them joining can be months or over a year. He operationalizes it by continuously adding value to people he wants to work with so that when an opportunity arises they are open to it. His broader life philosophy: almost everyone wants something, and if you can give it or connect them to it, it's criminal not to.

The gap between meeting a great hire and them joining can be a year or more
Add value to people you want to work with so they'll choose you when the time comes
Everybody wants something; often you can give it or connect them to it
He made ~600 intros last year, driving advisor signups, jobs, and investments
This was modeled for him when an investor passed on his company but connected him to many people

“my biggest thing I say of all time is when you're hiring you pick the people that they pick when”
Ayo Omojola · 28:30

“one of my core philosophies in life is that everybody wants something and most the time it's not something you have to give or you…”
Ayo Omojola · 29:30

#hiring#networking#leadership

Takeaway39:00

You don't have to do it yourself, but the execution owner must become the expert

Ayo clarifies a common misreading of 'going deep': it's not that the leader must do everything, but that whoever owns the execution role must become the expert and can't stop until they hit the end. Enormous value is lost when the person in the execution seat isn't in command of all the details. Ambitious things require working with people you trust, and both they and the organization must know they're accountable for that depth.

Going deep does not mean the leader does everything themselves
The person in the execution role must become the expert and can't stop until the end
Value is lost when the execution owner isn't in command of the details
Ambitious work requires trusted people, held accountable for that depth
Operationally it's trust-but-verify, not accepting 'X person said so' as an answer

“the person who you trust in the execution role they they have to become the expert they have to be like they can't stop till…”
Ayo Omojola · 39:30

#leadership#execution#team-building

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Don't Stop Until You Reach the End

Hire Founders (Eyes Open to the Costs)

Hire the People That People Pick

Startup-Within-a-Company Team Design

The Differentiation Stack

People & resources mentioned

People · 8

Resources · 33

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 3

Cash App's success was 10 things done right, not one

The 'startup within a startup' is fake because there's no existential fear

In healthcare, outcomes are network-dependent, not merit-dependent

✶Explainer· 3

The four bars a product must clear: different, better, mattering, and in a domain that matters

Why Ayo hires ex-founders, and the two costs that come with it

An 'expert' is usually just the most tenured person, so keep pushing to the end

❝Story· 4

How a print-and-mail side project taught Ayo SEO via Quora

'Instant' was the differentiator: try and send me a dollar I can use now

Touring card factories to make the Cash Card physically different

Asking the 'annoying' questions: the null payment-reason field

?Q&A· 1

Ayo's favorite interview question tests for introspection

✦Tool· 1

Shipping hack: use Uber to send something across town

▲Takeaway· 3

A small, senior, trusted team that earned scale before headcount

You hire the people they pick when: add value first so they choose you later

You don't have to do it yourself, but the execution owner must become the expert

Hot Take· 3

Explainer· 3

Story· 4

Q&A· 1

Tool· 1

Takeaway· 3