Georgiana Laudi (Forget The Funnel)29 September 2022

Customer-led growth

7Frameworks

12Insights

Episode overview

Georgiana Laudi argues that conventional funnels and pirate metrics center the business, obscure customer context, and inadequately cover retention and expansion. She presents a customer-led process: research a company's best customers, identify and prioritize their job to be done, map roughly six value milestones, and assign a meaningful KPI to each. The SparkToro case illustrates the approach, with customer research informing product onboarding, messaging, checklists, and win-back experiences that ultimately doubled free-to-paid conversion.

Key ideas

Traditional funnels treat customers uniformly, center company value rather than customer value, and often stop at acquisition despite the importance of retention and expansion.
Define best customers as recent, happy, low-maintenance customers who receive substantial value and can accurately recall life before the product.
Prioritize customer jobs with urgent pain, high willingness to pay, strong retention or expansion potential, accessible audiences, and any unfair market advantage.
Map the journey through struggle, evaluation, and growth, using as few meaningful value milestones as the product allows—often around six.
Attach a KPI to every milestone so teams can measure progress, detect drop-off, and trigger targeted re-engagement.
Use customer language and its observed hierarchy to create positioning and messaging instead of emphasizing whichever product features the company finds most exciting.
For SparkToro, repeated searches plus use of lists and exports represented increasingly meaningful value, guiding its onboarding checklist and email sequence.
Research need not produce analysis paralysis: focused surveys of ideal customers can yield decisive direction within two or three weeks.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Productivity4 steps

Async Priority Codes for Small Teams

Tag every Slack message with a response-window code so nobody has to monitor the channel.

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Strategy6 steps

Customer Job Prioritization Criteria

Five tests for choosing which customer job to lead with when research surfaces more than one.

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Marketing5 steps

The Best-Customer Research Survey

Survey only recent, happy, paying customers, with questions that reconstruct their decision.

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Marketing5 steps

The Customer-Led Growth Loop

Understand best customers, map their value journey, measure it, fix what's misaligned.

Read →

Marketing5 steps

The Messaging Guide That Rolls Up to the Job

A 5-7 page guardrail doc: value prop, competitive edge, ranked emotional and functional benefits.

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Marketing6 steps

The Six-Milestone Customer Journey Map

Struggle, evaluation, growth — six value milestones that replace the funnel as your growth model.

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Marketing6 steps

Value-Moment KPIs and the Win-Back Loop

Tie each milestone to a compound usage metric, then use it to catch people when they fall.

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People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 24

Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
Georgiana LaudiMentionsGeorgiana AKA Gia runs a consultancy called forget the funnel where she works Hands-On with SAS companies to help them unlock and accelerate growth
“today my guest is Georgiana Laudy Georgiana AKA Gia runs a consultancy called forget the funnel”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
John CutlerMentionsI talked to John Cuddler actually and he gave me this framework that is like completely stuck in my mind
“I'm excited to chat with my friend John Cutler from podcast sponsor amplitude”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
Lex FridmanMentionsthis reminds me of a story I just listened to on Lex Friedman's podcast
“I've been hearing about ag-1 on basically every podcast that I listen to like Tim Ferriss and Lex Friedman”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
Tim FerrissMentionsCited for his fear-setting framework and as an influence on Paul Millerd's five-episode podcast experiment.
“I've been hearing about ag-1 on basically every podcast that I listen to like Tim Ferriss and Lex Friedman”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
Georgiana LaudiMentionsGeorgiana AKA Gia runs a consultancy called forget the funnel where she works Hands-On with SAS companies to help them unlock and accelerate growth
“Gia welcomed to the podcast”
▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
Claire SuellentropMentionsClaire or celentrop who led marketing at Cali Lee and her and I have been working together since about mid 2017
“Claire or celentrop who led marketing at Cali Lee and her and I have been working together since about mid 2017”
▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
Claire SuellentropCoinedClaire or celentrop who led marketing at Cali Lee and her and I have been working together since about mid 2017
“that's when we launched forget the funnel”
▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
Dave McClureMentionsmentioned
“at startupfest 2012 I want to say Dave McClure was talking about pirate metrics”
▶ Watch at ~7:00approx.
Carter GilchristMentionsCarter Gilchrist who's head of product and co-founder
“Carter Gilchrist who's head of product and co-founder”
▶ Watch at ~16:30approx.
Casey HenryMentionsmentioned
“I mean the brand and Casey they're both very very thoughtful and they take their time with stuff”
▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
Rand FishkinCoinedRyan fishkin who was the founder of Moz she's got a new product it's an audience research tool called sparktoro
“Ryan fishkin who was the founder of Moz she's got a new product it's an audience research tool called sparktoro”
▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
Jackie BavaroMentionsA big thank you to Jackie Bavaro
“Jackie babaro on product strategy Ariel Jackson on Startup branding Emily Kramer on B2B marketing”
▶ Watch at ~36:00approx.
Emily KramerMentionsemily led and built the marketing teams at asana carda ticketfly and astro which was a startup acquired by slack
“Ariel Jackson on Startup branding Emily Kramer on B2B marketing plus Annie Duke on decision making”
▶ Watch at ~36:00approx.
Annie DukeMentionsAnnie is the author of the bestselling book thinking in bets and also her more recent book quit
“Emily Kramer on B2B marketing plus Annie Duke on decision making near at all on behavioral design”
▶ Watch at ~36:00approx.
Arielle JacksonMentionsarielle jackson from first round is an amazing support system to founders and marketers at startup
“Jackie babaro on product strategy Ariel Jackson on Startup branding Emily Kramer on B2B marketing”
▶ Watch at ~36:00approx.
Amanda NatividadMentionstheir VP of marketing the new VP of marketing Amanda and timidad
“their VP of marketing the new VP of marketing Amanda and timidad actually ruled out checklist”
▶ Watch at ~48:30approx.
Bob MoestaRecommendsBob is the co-creator of the job is to beone framework and worked alongside Klay Christensen for many years
“a heavy influence for us definitely is Bob mesta who's one of the original Super Architects of jobs be done”
▶ Watch at ~56:00approx.
April DunfordRecommendsApril Dunford was on this podcast and she has this book that she put out recently called the sales pitch
“obviously Awesome by April Dunford I'm sure you've proved that one a ton it's kind of like required reading”
▶ Watch at ~1:00:00approx.
Nir EyalRecommendsNir is the author of two best-selling books and teaches and consults at the intersection of psychology, technology, and business.
“the other one that I really enjoyed Flipside was hooked by nir Al so that one was great too”
▶ Watch at ~1:00:00approx.
April DunfordMentionsApril Dunford was on this podcast and she has this book that she put out recently called the sales pitch
“April Dunford Tara Robertson Joanna weed Talia wolf and then obviously my business partner Claire”
▶ Watch at ~1:03:30approx.
Talia WolfMentionsmentioned
“April Dunford Tara Robertson Joanna weed Talia wolf and then obviously my business partner Claire”
▶ Watch at ~1:03:30approx.
Joanna WiebeMentionsmentioned
“April Dunford Tara Robertson Joanna weed Talia wolf and then obviously my business partner Claire”
▶ Watch at ~1:03:30approx.
Tara RobertsonMentionsmentioned
“April Dunford Tara Robertson Joanna weed Talia wolf and then obviously my business partner Claire”
▶ Watch at ~1:03:30approx.

Resources · 31

Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
AmplitudeMentionssoftware · Amplitude
“my friend John Cutler from podcast sponsor amplitude”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
Amplitude ExperimentCoinedsoftware · Amplitude
“experiment in CDP came out of listening to and observing our customers”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
Amplitude CDPCoinedsoftware · Amplitude
“experiment in CDP came out of listening to and observing our customers”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
AmplitudeUsessoftware · Amplitude
“customers were using amplitude to analyze experiments use segments for outreach and send data to other destinations”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
Athletic GreensMentionscompany
“this episode is brought to you by athletic greens”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
AG1Usesproduct · Athletic Greens
“I finally gave it a shot earlier this year and it has quickly become a core part of my morning routine”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
TwitterUseswebsite · Twitter
“I joined Twitter in late 2008 and I discovered the like Tech scene and startups”
▶ Watch at ~5:30approx.
UnbounceUsescompany
“joined the team at unbounce and I was there for five years”
▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
Forget The FunnelCoinedcompany · Georgiana Laudi and Claire Suellentrop
“that's when we launched forget the funnel”
▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.link ↗
Startupfest 2012Mentionsevent
“at startupfest 2012 I want to say Dave McClure was talking about pirate metrics”
▶ Watch at ~7:00approx.
AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk
“it was the customer journey of an Airbnb customer”
▶ Watch at ~15:00approx.
Project Snow WhiteMentionsother · Airbnb
“internally it's called project Snow White”
▶ Watch at ~18:00approx.
Snow White and the Seven DwarfsMentionsfilm · Walt Disney Productions
“they needed to create these the storyboard basically to create Snow White because it was so complicated to make that movie”
▶ Watch at ~18:00approx.
SparkToroCoinedsoftware · Rand Fishkin and Casey Henry
“she's got a new product it's an audience research tool called sparktoro”
▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
MozCoinedcompany · Rand Fishkin and Gillian Muessig
“Ryan fishkin who was the founder of Moz”
▶ Watch at ~20:30approx.
Jobs to Be DoneUsesother · Bob Moesta and Clayton Christensen
“we are heavy Believers in the jobs be done Theory”
▶ Watch at ~21:30approx.link ↗
MavenUseswebsite · Maven
“I've been an investor an advisor and a customer of Maven from day one”
▶ Watch at ~35:30approx.
MavenMentionswebsite · Maven
“Maven is a cohort based learning platform where you learn alongside peers with a direct connection to your instructor”
▶ Watch at ~35:30approx.
SparkToroUsessoftware · Rand Fishkin and Casey Henry
“so that's what we did first work to our customers based on the research that we did”
▶ Watch at ~36:30approx.
Demand-Side Sales 101Recommendsbook · Bob Moesta and Greg Engle
“Bob mesta wrote a book called demand side sales that goes into it”
▶ Watch at ~56:00approx.
Jobs to Be DoneRecommendsother · Bob Moesta and Clayton Christensen
“there's I think it's jtbd.info is a good website”
▶ Watch at ~56:00approx.link ↗
When Coffee and Kale CompeteRecommendsbook · Alan Klement
“when coffee make kale is one that a lot of people love”
▶ Watch at ~56:00approx.
Obviously AwesomeRecommendsbook · April Dunford
“obviously Awesome by April Dunford I'm sure you've proved that one a ton it's kind of like required reading”
▶ Watch at ~1:00:00approx.
HookedRecommendsbook · Nir Eyal
“the other one that I really enjoyed Flipside was hooked by nir Al so that one was great too”
▶ Watch at ~1:00:00approx.
Four Thousand WeeksRecommendsbook · Oliver Burkeman
“another book that I read recently which has nothing to do with marketing at all but was like really nice was four thousand weeks”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.
SlackUsessoftware · Slack Technologies
“we're a small team and we use slack obviously”
▶ Watch at ~1:04:00approx.
Apple PodcastsMentionssoftware · Apple Inc.
“you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
SpotifyMentionssoftware · Spotify
“you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
Forget The FunnelMentionscompany · Georgiana Laudi and Claire Suellentrop
“forgetthefunnel.com we've got a book page where there is a wait list”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.link ↗
Lenny's PodcastMentionspodcast · Lenny Rachitsky
“you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:30approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 2

Myth Buster43:00

70% Log In Once and Never Return, Yet Nobody Has a Win-Back

Gia cites the stat that roughly 70% of people log into a product once and never come back, and is repeatedly stunned that so many companies have no re-engagement or win-back experience. Her approach is both proactive (push people toward the value moment) and reactive (catch them when they fall off), which is only possible if you're measuring something meaningful at each milestone.

Roughly 70% of people log in once and never return
Most companies have no win-back or re-engagement experience
You can't keep emailing people who haven't reached a value moment
The strategy is proactive pushing plus reactive catching
Catching drop-offs requires a KPI at each milestone

“I think it's like 70 of people log into an App log into a product once and never come back”
Gia · 43:00

#retention#win-back#engagement#activation

Myth Buster57:30

Customer Research Doesn't Have to Cause Analysis Paralysis

Gia counters the common objection that research is slow and leads to analysis paralysis. In a survey scenario like SparkToro's, she says you can come out with something solid in just two or three weeks, avoiding the too-many-cooks bickering. She also pushes back on founders who think everything already lives in their head: products, markets, and customers change, and founders always learn something new.

Survey-based research can produce solid direction in two or three weeks
It avoids stakeholder bickering and analysis paralysis
Founders knowing the problem doesn't mean the knowledge stays current
Products, markets, customers, and teams all change over time
She's never seen a founder do this research and not learn something new

“I have lots of examples of companies where we run surveys it can be a couple of weeks like two or three weeks you can…”
Gia · 58:00

#research#surveys#founders#objections

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take07:00

Why Funnels and Pirate Metrics Are Broken

Gia explains why she named her consultancy 'Forget the Funnel.' Funnels and stage labels like MQL/SQL bucket every customer the same, measure the value to the business rather than the value to the customer, and treat acquisition as the finish line. For recurring-revenue SaaS, she argues, that framing leaves out retention, expansion, and the customer's problem stage entirely.

Nobody actually knows what MQL/SQL mean, and they assume all customers and products are the same
Funnels put the business at the center instead of the customer
For SaaS you can't treat growth as ending at acquisition, or you're out of business
Most models ignore post-acquisition retention and expansion
They also delete the pre-discovery 'problem stage' context that's most valuable for messaging

“puts businesses at the center of the business versus putting customers at the center right”
Gia · 07:30

“so yeah that's in a nutshell funnels are bad”
Gia · 08:30

#funnels#saas#growth#metrics

Hot Take13:00

Product Onboarding Is Nobody's Job

Gia argues the post-acquisition experience is chronically neglected because product onboarding falls into organizational no-man's-land. There's no natural handoff between teams, so it becomes a messy middle nobody owns. Her opinion: if it's freemium, onboarding is a marketing tool and marketing should own it, though not every company agrees.

Post-acquisition experience is 'so often an afterthought'
Onboarding ownership is ambiguous between marketing and product
Freemium onboarding, in her view, is a marketing responsibility
The lack of a natural handoff creates a 'messy middle'
Nearly every company they've worked with had room to improve onboarding and activation

“it tends to be kind of like no man's land like who owns that is it marketing”
Gia · 13:00

#onboarding#activation#org-design#freemium

Explainer· 2

Explainer24:30

How to Choose Which Customer Job to Lead With

Gia walks through the criteria for picking one customer job to lead with when research surfaces several. She weighs willingness to pay, urgency of the problem (painkiller vs vitamin), retention and expansion potential, how easy the segment is to market to, and whether you hold an unfair advantage. For SparkToro that meant leaning into marketers over data analysts.

High willingness to pay: no question they'd buy a product like yours
Match hand-holding needs to whether you're product-led or sales-led
Prioritize an urgent problem: sell a painkiller, not a vitamin
Favor high retention or expansion potential for long-term need
Prefer segments that congregate (easy to market to) or where you have an unfair advantage

“so the whole painkiller versus vitamin thing you always want to be you know selling a painkiller”
Gia · 25:00

#prioritization#positioning#jobs-to-be-done#sparktoro

Explainer56:30

Ozzy Osbourne vs King Charles: Why Personas Fall Down

Gia explains jobs-to-be-done by contrasting it with demographic personas. Ozzy Osbourne and King Charles are the same age, live in the same area, both own a dog and love cars, so they're demographically identical, yet lead completely different lives with different motivations. Personas fall down there; jobs-to-be-done instead identifies the better life a customer is seeking, with your product as the vehicle.

Demographic data doesn't capture what customers are trying to accomplish
Ozzy Osbourne and King Charles are demographically identical but live different lives
Motivation, not demographics, is what actually differs
Jobs-to-be-done identifies the desired outcome or better life sought
Your product is just the vehicle to get customers there

“they both have a dog they both love cars they both you know from a demographic standpoint they are identical but they obviously lead very…”
Gia · 57:00

#jobs-to-be-done#personas#customer-research

Story· 3

Story09:00

How Better Messaging Doubled Downstream Conversion Untouched

Gia shares a favorite case: for a social media tool they did simple research, identified two jobs-to-be-done, zeroed in on one, and rewrote the website messaging. Website conversion rose 89% even after shortening the trial from 30 to 7 days. The surprise was that trial-to-paid conversion jumped 40% without them touching anything post-signup, purely because better-fit customers were now coming through the door.

Research found two jobs-to-be-done; they focused messaging on one
Trial was shortened from 30 days to 7 days
Website conversion increased 89% from the new messaging
Trial-to-paid rose 40% with zero changes after signup
The lift came entirely from more qualified customers entering the top of the journey

“the conversional website went up with this new messaging by 89”
Gia · 10:30

“the trial to pay conversion rate increased 40 and we didn't touch it it was just because as a more qualified better fit customer was…”
Gia · 11:00

#conversion#messaging#positioning#case-study

Story14:00

The Airbnb 'Snow White' Wall That Changed How Gia Thinks

On a 2013 tour of Airbnb's office, Gia saw sheets of paper taped to a wall mapping the entire customer journey through the emotional lens of the customer, not the business. It was the opposite of pirate metrics, and it reframed how she approaches growth. Airbnb internally called it 'Project Snow White,' inspired by Disney's storyboarding, and even hired a full-time storyboard artist from Pixar to draw the keyframes.

The wall mapped the customer journey including emotional milestones and life events outside the product
It was legible at a glance so anyone walking by understood the goal at each milestone
It reframed marketing as delivering value across the whole journey, not just awareness
Internally named 'Project Snow White,' inspired by the biography of Walt Disney
Airbnb hired a full-time storyboard artist from Pixar to draw the keyframes

“holy [ __ ] this is completely different it's this is completely through the lens of the customer versus the business”
Gia · 16:00

“they're being be hired a full-time storyboard artist from Pixar to draw these keyframes”
Lenny · 18:30

#airbnb#customer-journey#storyboarding#growth

Story44:30

The Search-Lists-Export Value Moments That Doubled SparkToro's Conversion

For SparkToro, Gia's team tied each milestone to concrete product actions. First value was five-plus searches plus creating at least one list; deeper engagement added discovering the export feature. Lists and exports existed but weren't front-loaded in the experience. SparkToro's own VP built onboarding emails and a checklist around these moments, and trial-to-paid doubled.

Tipping into evaluation was measured by performing a first search
First value KPI was roughly five-plus searches plus at least one list
Deeper engagement required searches, lists, and discovering export once
Lists and export weren't 'hidden' but weren't front-and-center enough
SparkToro's team built onboarding emails and a checklist, and trial-to-paid doubled

“so that first value kpi is I think it was five plus surges Plus at least one list”
Gia · 45:30

#sparktoro#activation#kpis#onboarding#case-study

Tool· 1

Tool59:30

Gia's Recommended Books on Positioning and Jobs-to-Be-Done

Gia rarely reads marketing books but names a few foundational ones. She calls April Dunford's 'Obviously Awesome' required reading for founders and 'Hooked' by Nir Eyal a great companion. For jobs-to-be-done she points to Bob Moesta (a key architect of JTBD), his book 'Demand-Side Sales,' the site jtbd.info, and 'When Coffee and Kale Compete.' Outside marketing she recommends 'Four Thousand Weeks.'

'Obviously Awesome' by April Dunford is treated as required reading for founders
'Hooked' by Nir Eyal recommended as a complement
Bob Moesta is cited as an original architect of jobs-to-be-done
'Demand-Side Sales' by Bob Moesta and jtbd.info are JTBD resources
'When Coffee and Kale Compete' and the non-marketing 'Four Thousand Weeks' also recommended

“obviously Awesome by April Dunford I'm sure you've proved that one a ton it's kind of like required reading”
Gia · 1:00:00

#books#recommendations#jobs-to-be-done#positioning

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway22:30

Only Survey Customers Who Still Remember Life Before You

When identifying 'best customers' to learn from, Gia's criteria are: they get a ton of value, they pay, they're happy, they're low-maintenance, and crucially they signed up recently enough to remember life before your product. She targets the three-to-six-month range, because longtime customers just invent answers about what their life used to be like.

Best customers = high value received, paying, happy, low-maintenance
They must remember what life was like before the product
Target the three-to-six-month tenure window
Two-year customers fill in answers with what they think was going on
Recent customers give more accurate, more interesting responses

“they signed up for your product recently enough that they remember what life was like before so generally we say that's like in the three…”
Gia · 22:30

#customer-research#surveys#jobs-to-be-done

Takeaway51:30

Reflect Customers' Own Words Back at Them

Gia's core messaging principle: internal judgment and team knowledge have value, but should never come before learning from your best customers and using their exact language. Reflecting customers back to themselves is what proves you understand their problem. She recommends ranking value themes by how often survey respondents mention them, so messaging leads with what customers care about, not what the team thinks is coolest.

Never let internal opinion come before listening to ideal customers
Use the customer's own language and reflect them back to themselves
It's hard to read your own label from inside the jar
Rank messaging by frequency of what customers say they value most
Lead with what customers care about, not the coolest thing about your product

“it should never come before learning from and listening to your best ideal customers and using the language that they use you want to reflect…”
Gia · 51:30

#messaging#voice-of-customer#positioning#copywriting

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

Async Priority Codes for Small Teams

Customer Job Prioritization Criteria

The Best-Customer Research Survey

The Customer-Led Growth Loop

The Messaging Guide That Rolls Up to the Job

The Six-Milestone Customer Journey Map

Value-Moment KPIs and the Win-Back Loop

People & resources mentioned

People · 24

Resources · 31

Insights & moments

⚡Myth Buster· 2

70% Log In Once and Never Return, Yet Nobody Has a Win-Back

Customer Research Doesn't Have to Cause Analysis Paralysis

◆Hot Take· 2

Why Funnels and Pirate Metrics Are Broken

Product Onboarding Is Nobody's Job

✶Explainer· 2

How to Choose Which Customer Job to Lead With

Ozzy Osbourne vs King Charles: Why Personas Fall Down

❝Story· 3

How Better Messaging Doubled Downstream Conversion Untouched

The Airbnb 'Snow White' Wall That Changed How Gia Thinks

The Search-Lists-Export Value Moments That Doubled SparkToro's Conversion

✦Tool· 1

Gia's Recommended Books on Positioning and Jobs-to-Be-Done

▲Takeaway· 2

Only Survey Customers Who Still Remember Life Before You

Reflect Customers' Own Words Back at Them

Myth Buster· 2

Hot Take· 2

Explainer· 2

Story· 3

Tool· 1

Takeaway· 2