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Barbra Gago (Pando, Miro, Greenhouse, Culture Amp)27 October 2022

Category creation and brand building

7Frameworks
15Insights

Episode overview

Barbra Gago explains when B2B companies should create a new product category, when they should retain an established category, and how customer language, budgets, analysts, PR, and content shape that choice. Drawing on Miro and Greenhouse, she discusses category creation, failed positioning, and the operational demands of a company-wide rebrand. She also connects authentic brands to company values and explains how opinionated software can encode better practices, including Pando's approach to employee progression.

Key ideas

  • Category creation is most appropriate when a product does not fit existing categories or when a market inflection point creates a genuinely new buyer need.
  • Customer language, existing budget lines, competitive products, analysts, and directory sites are critical evidence when defining or validating a category.
  • A company can sell into an established category while gradually educating the market about a broader, differentiated category.
  • Greenhouse abandoned “recruiting optimization platform” because customers continued to understand and budget for it as an applicant tracking system.
  • Miro expanded beyond the narrow online-whiteboard label by packaging many use cases under visual collaboration.
  • A rebrand should operate like a cross-functional product-development effort, with clear ownership, customer feedback, and coordinated changes across legal, product, web, and sales.
  • Strong brands reflect company values consistently across visual identity, voice, employee behavior, customer interactions, and product experience.
  • Opinionated software embeds principles or best practices into workflows; Pando applies this approach to fairer, more transparent employee progression.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Leadership5 steps

Brain-Dump, Group, Vote, Single-Author (Company Values Workshop)

Crowdsource the raw material for values, but never write the definitions by committee

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Marketing5 steps

Dual-Track Category Building (Sell Into Today's Budget, Build Tomorrow's Category)

Rank in the funded category you already fit while running a long-tail campaign to shift the market to your new one

Read →
Marketing6 steps

Rebrand as a Product Development Process

Run a rebrand with sprint teams, owners, and transparency — not as a marketing reveal

Read →
Marketing5 steps

The Category Creation Go/No-Go Test

Four checks — budget, buyer language, competition, and vision scope — decide whether to invent a category or win an existing one

Read →
Marketing4 steps

The Four-Channel Category Rollout

Customer language, PR testing, analyst/directory validation, and content — the mechanics of making a category real

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Innovation5 steps

The Two Paths to Opinionated Software

Either encode a best practice that already exists without technology, or teach a better way and enforce it in the product

Read →
Marketing5 steps

The Values-Encoded Brand System

Build the brand as a system whose elements each encode a company value, so every touchpoint stays on-brand without training

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 8

  • Barbra GagoMentionsBarbara was Chief marketing officer and Global head of marketing at Miro where she helped build their Global brand

    “today my guest is Barbara Gago Barbara was Chief marketing officer and Global head of marketing at Miro”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Lenny RachitskyCoinedtoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    “welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • Barbra GagoMentionsBarbara was Chief marketing officer and Global head of marketing at Miro where she helped build their Global brand

    “most recently I was the CMO at Miro where I also left the Rebrand and kind of introduced that product to the world”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • Haruki MurakamiCoinedmentioned

    “a book called kafta on the shore it's one of my favorite murakami books that I highly recommend”

    ▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
  • Neil GaimanCoinedmentioned

    “it's based off of like a eight-part graphic novel series by Neil gaim”

    ▶ Watch at ~52:30approx.
  • Nancy DuarteRecommendsAuthor whose work JM Nichols gives to product managers developing communication, storytelling, and presentation skills.

    “like early days I really appreciated Nancy Duarte she's based in the Bay Area she has a agency called Duarte agency”

    ▶ Watch at ~53:30approx.
  • Nancy DuarteMentionsAuthor whose work JM Nichols gives to product managers developing communication, storytelling, and presentation skills.

    “she's been really great for me just in my career as a mentor”

    ▶ Watch at ~54:00approx.
  • Al GoreMentionsAl Gore's Inconvenient Truth

    “I remember learning about her when Al Gord get his Ted Talk and her old agency was it”

    ▶ Watch at ~54:00approx.

Resources · 46

  • Lenny's PodcastCoinedpodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
  • GreenhouseMentionssoftware

    “before that she was VP of marketing at Greenhouse where she brought the product to Market”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • Culture AmpMentionssoftware

    “she was also a head of marketing at culturam where she helped build their go to market plan”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • SpotifyMentionssoftware · Spotify

    “product LED growth companies like Spotify Loom and callrail are using to infuse AI into their products with simple apis”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • LoomMentionssoftware · Loom

    “product LED growth companies like Spotify Loom and callrail are using to infuse AI into their products with simple apis”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • CallRailMentionssoftware · CallRail

    “product LED growth companies like Spotify Loom and callrail are using to infuse AI into their products with simple apis”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • AssemblyAIRecommendscompany · AssemblyAI

    “visit assemblyai.com to try assembly ai's API for free and start testing their models in their no code playground”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
  • StytchRecommendssoftware

    “Stitch is your all-in-one platform for Authentication”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
  • YammerMentionssoftware · David Sacks

    “before that I did some work in Enterprise social networking and the Yammer days”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • Culture AmpMentionssoftware

    “I helped bring products like culture amp and Greenhouse to Market in the people space”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • MiroMentionssoftware · Miro

    “at Miro you invented this category that's now called visual collaboration station”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
  • JobviteMentionssoftware

    “I don't know if folks that listen to this know a job fight or remember job bite”

    ▶ Watch at ~8:00approx.
  • Software AdviceRecommendswebsite

    “a good way to explore your space and your relevant categories would be to go to G2 crowd or software advice”

    ▶ Watch at ~10:00approx.
  • G2Recommendswebsite · G2

    “a good way to explore your space and your relevant categories would be to go to G2 crowd or software advice”

    ▶ Watch at ~10:00approx.
  • MarketoMentionssoftware · Adobe

    “so Marketo now HubSpot fits into that even though back then they were more of this inbound marketing platform slash category”

    ▶ Watch at ~13:00approx.
  • GainsightMentionscompany

    “I think games I did a great job with the customer success platform”

    ▶ Watch at ~13:00approx.
  • HubSpotMentionscompany · HubSpot

    “so Marketo now HubSpot fits into that even though back then they were more of this inbound marketing platform slash category”

    ▶ Watch at ~13:00approx.
  • GartnerMentionscompany

    “the analysts like Gartner and Forester and all these guys at least in B2B and Enterprise they really shape for customers what the categories are”

    ▶ Watch at ~22:30approx.
  • ForresterMentionscompany

    “the analysts like Gartner and Forester and all these guys at least in B2B and Enterprise they really shape for customers what the categories are”

    ▶ Watch at ~22:30approx.
  • G2Useswebsite · G2

    “we had to meet with them and explain what it was and talk to them about the differentiation of this category”

    ▶ Watch at ~22:30approx.
  • OysterMentionscompany

    “it's these employment platforms like deal and oyster that have propped up and grown significantly fast”

    ▶ Watch at ~24:30approx.
  • DeelMentionscompany

    “it's these employment platforms like deal and oyster that have propped up and grown significantly fast”

    ▶ Watch at ~24:30approx.
  • PandoMentionsproduct · Pando

    “I would say for Pando for example Performance Management is a very established category that we technically fit into”

    ▶ Watch at ~26:00approx.
  • EloquaMentionssoftware

    “there was like eliqua and Marketo and several others and we all were just like telling everybody educating the market on what that was”

    ▶ Watch at ~28:00approx.
  • VantaRecommendssoftware · Christina Cacioppo

    “over 3 000 best scoring companies use vanta to automate up to 90 of the work involved with sock 2”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:00approx.
  • RealTimeBoardMentionssoftware

    “it used to be called I think real time board with two capital letters and no space”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
  • Silicon ValleyMentionsplace · Mike Judge, John Altschuler, and Dave Krinsky

    “I had spent my whole career in Silicon Valley a lot of time with brand and kind of inbound and Community focused Brands”

    ▶ Watch at ~32:00approx.
  • South by SouthwestMentionsevent

    “we launched publicly at South by Southwest with a fully three-dimensional booth in March”

    ▶ Watch at ~36:00approx.
  • MiroMentionssoftware · Miro

    “we got our domain name change to miro.com I think it was like 48 hours before the event”

    ▶ Watch at ~36:30approx.
  • AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk

    “I was there during the Airbnb Rebrand it took I think a year and a half for them from start to finish”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:00approx.
  • AirbnbMentionscompany · Brian Chesky, Joe Gebbia, and Nathan Blecharczyk

    “I think Airbnb has done a great job with that as well”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:00approx.
  • GoogleMentionscompany · Google

    “when you talk about Google you also talk about it's people like they're one in the same googlers”

    ▶ Watch at ~39:30approx.
  • MiroUsessoftware · Miro

    “we actually used Miro where everybody just like brain dumped their ideas around values”

    ▶ Watch at ~43:30approx.
  • GreenhouseMentionssoftware

    “Greenhouse is another example from a recruiting perspective in terms of what we call structured recruiting”

    ▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
  • AtlassianMentionscompany

    “probably a pretty well-known example for your audience especially is atlassian really building tools for like agile workflows and agile teams”

    ▶ Watch at ~47:00approx.
  • Radical CandorRecommendsbook · Kim Scott

    “definitely radical Candor we give this out to customers it's really good for management and best practices around giving feedback”

    ▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
  • Radical CandorUsesbook · Kim Scott

    “definitely radical Candor we give this out to customers”

    ▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
  • The Art of WarRecommendsbook · Sun Tzu

    “I love The Art of War just as like searching thinking”

    ▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
  • Kafka on the ShoreRecommendsbook · Haruki Murakami

    “a book called kafta on the shore it's one of my favorite murakami books that I highly recommend”

    ▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
  • Cautionary TalesRecommendspodcast · Tim Harford

    “I love cautionary tales I don't know if you know this one but it's a great podcast”

    ▶ Watch at ~52:00approx.
  • The SandmanRecommendstv show · Neil Gaiman

    “I watched Sandman I don't know if you've heard of this”

    ▶ Watch at ~52:30approx.
  • The Sandman (graphic novel series)Mentionsbook · Neil Gaiman

    “it's based off of like a eight-part graphic novel series by Neil gaim”

    ▶ Watch at ~52:30approx.
  • The SandmanMentionstv show · Neil Gaiman

    “the way that they portrayed the characters was really interesting and super diverse it's a great show”

    ▶ Watch at ~53:00approx.
  • DuarteCoinedcompany · Nancy Duarte

    “Nancy Duarte she's based in the Bay Area she has a agency called Duarte agency”

    ▶ Watch at ~53:30approx.
  • PandoMentionsproduct · Pando

    “and what's the URL pando.com”

    ▶ Watch at ~55:00approx.
  • Lenny's PodcastMentionspodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com”

    ▶ Watch at ~55:30approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take09:00

You Don't Have a Category Until Competitors Show Up

Counterintuitively, Gago argues you're not actually building a category until competition arrives. Founders often think avoiding competition is the reason to invent a category, but a category isn't official until multiple companies claim it. New entrants validating your space is a good thing, not a threat.

  • A category isn't real until multiple companies say they're in it
  • Competitors entering validates the category rather than threatening it
  • This was a major reframe for Gago in the category-creation process

“but ultimately you're not building a category until there is competition like it's not officially actually a category until there's more companies that do that”

Barbra Gago · 09:00
#category-creation#competition#hot-take
Hot Take48:30

Building Opinionated Software to Kill Performance Reviews

Pando is deliberately opinionated because today's performance reviews are full of bias and drive systemic problems — companies patch pay gaps yearly without fixing how people get promoted and progressed. Gago's system requires companies to be transparent about levels and competencies and creates accountability on both employee and manager sides. She frames it as the right thing to do, not just a feature.

  • Performance reviews are full of bias and perpetuate systemic promotion/pay problems
  • Fixing comp annually treats the symptom, not the systemic cause
  • Pando requires transparency about levels and competencies, with two-sided accountability
  • Employees deserve to feel evaluated fairly — the system enforces what most companies won't do manually

“it's opinionated because the current way that performance reviews happen are full of bias and there's a lot of problems with it”

Barbra Gago · 49:00

“it's also like the right thing to do employees should feel that they're evaluated fairly”

Barbra Gago · 50:00
#opinionated-software#pando#performance-reviews#hot-take

Explainer· 4

Explainer09:39

What a Product Category Actually Is

Gago defines a category as a set of features or products solving a specific pain point that customers have budget allocated for. She points to review and directory sites like G2 Crowd and Software Advice as the places categories get defined, and explains categories range from broad all-in-one solutions to narrow best-in-class ones. In practice, the category becomes the headline of how you pitch and sell your product.

  • A category is a set of features/products solving a specific pain point customers budget for
  • Explore your space via review/directory sites like G2 Crowd or Software Advice
  • Categories span a spectrum from broad all-in-one to narrow best-in-class
  • The category becomes the headline of how you pitch your product (e.g. 'the leader in visual collaboration')

“but I think ultimately it's just a set of features or products that are solving a specific pain point that customers most likely have a…”

Barbra Gago · 10:30
#category-creation#positioning#b2b#marketing
Explainer21:00

The Tactics of Rolling Out a New Category

Gago walks through how to actually launch a category: start by deeply understanding customers and how they describe their pain points, then use PR to test the positioning publicly, build relationships with analysts (Gartner, Forrester) and directory sites who shape how customers see categories, and back it all with heavy content marketing and thought leadership to educate buyers into budgeting for it.

  • Best marketing comes from a million customer conversations about how they describe problems
  • Use PR to push the positioning out and test whether it resonates
  • Build relationships with analysts and directory sites (G2, Gartner, Forrester) who define categories
  • Heavy content and thought leadership educate buyers to budget for the new category

“all of my best marketing and positioning literally comes from having a million conversations with customers and listening to how they solve problems”

Barbra Gago · 21:30
#category-creation#pr#analysts#content-marketing
Explainer39:00

The Strongest Brands Are Interchangeable With Their People

Gago argues a brand and product are the two things that win and keep customers — you need both. The more a brand is interchangeable with the people and company itself, the stronger and more authentic it is (think 'Googlers'). Company values are foundational because they shape every touchpoint automatically, so the brand manifests without having to train people on it.

  • Brand and product together win and retain customers — a great brand can't save a bad product
  • The strongest brands are interchangeable with the company's people (e.g. 'Googlers')
  • Values are foundational to how people behave, work, and talk to customers
  • When values live in the DNA, the brand manifests at every touchpoint without training

“the more the brand is interchangeable with the people at the company and the company itself the stronger it is the more authentic it is”

Barbra Gago · 39:30
#branding#values#culture#authenticity
Explainer46:30

What Opinionated Software Is

Gago defines opinionated software as platforms with best practices or rules built into the system, versus tools you can customize any way you want. Atlassian for agile workflows and Greenhouse's structured recruiting are her examples. It's principled and anchored in values, so certain rules get built in that users can't work around.

  • Opinionated software bakes best practices or rules into the product
  • Contrast: fully customizable tools vs. tools that enforce a way of working
  • Examples: Atlassian for agile, Greenhouse's structured recruiting
  • It's anchored in values, so some rules are non-negotiable by design

“you have systems that you can customize any which way and however you want and then you have other systems that enforce a certain way…”

Barbra Gago · 47:00

“so it's principled I would say it's anchored in some values and because of those values there will be certain rules that are built in…”

Barbra Gago · 47:30
#opinionated-software#product#greenhouse#atlassian

Story· 4

Story14:00

Greenhouse's Failed Attempt to Escape the ATS Label

At Greenhouse, the ATS category carried so much disdain that the team tried to create a new one — 'recruiting optimization platform.' Despite content and press, customers kept describing what Greenhouse did as applicant tracking, and the budget line stayed ATS. They abandoned the new category and instead spent their resources elevating the value of the existing ATS category.

  • 'Recruiting optimization platform' was the new category Greenhouse tried and abandoned
  • Customers kept calling it applicant tracking no matter what Greenhouse named it
  • Budget lived under ATS, so fighting the label made no sense
  • The pivot: spend money elevating the existing category's value instead of inventing a new one

“so it didn't really make sense to continue to go against the grain of no we're gonna be this new thing or we're going to…”

Barbra Gago · 15:30
#category-creation#greenhouse#ats#recruiting
Story16:30

How Miro Built 'Visual Collaboration' From a Vision

Unlike Greenhouse, Miro created a category customers didn't yet have budget for — it was a vision play. The product was so new it got called many things (online whiteboard, mind mapping, diagramming), so 'visual collaboration' became the bow that tied those jobs together into one enterprise product. Miro kept optimizing for the categories it already fit while pulling users toward the bigger vision.

  • Visual collaboration was a vision customers grew into, not one they started with
  • The product was called many things: online whiteboard, mind mapping, diagramming
  • Category creation packaged those disparate jobs into one enterprise product
  • Miro kept optimizing existing categories in parallel while building the new one

“so visual collaboration was our way of kind of like putting a nice bow around us thing that could then be an Enterprise product”

Barbra Gago · 17:30
#category-creation#miro#vision#branding
Story30:00

Why She Almost Didn't Join a Company Called RealtimeBoard

Miro was originally 'RealtimeBoard' — so literal that Gago nearly turned down the job, agonizing over it on dog walks with her husband. She made the right to change the name her condition for joining. Her rule: rebrand once you hit scale mode, after product-market fit but before you invest too heavily in the old brand or hire too many people.

  • The name was so literal it almost cost them their CMO hire
  • Gago made the right to rename the company a condition of joining
  • Rebrand sooner rather than later, once in scale mode
  • Do it after product-market fit but before over-investing in the brand or growing headcount

“I almost didn't join because it was called real-time board honestly I was like oh my God this is so literal”

Barbra Gago · 30:00

“Rebrand before I even joined it will they let me change the name was my criteria for joining”

Barbra Gago · 31:30
#rebranding#miro#naming#branding
Story34:30

Running a Rebrand Like a Product Launch

Gago ran Miro's rebrand as a product-development process — sprint teams, agile, distributed owners reporting back — rather than marketing going off alone and returning with a finished logo. They compressed naming through public launch at South by Southwest into months, and the miro.com domain only came through about 48 hours before the event, after all the material had already been printed with the new URL.

  • Rebrand run as a product process: sprint teams, agile, delegated owners
  • A name change touches legal, contracts, the website, product links, and URLs — align everyone
  • Naming kicked off end of October; public launch at SXSW in March
  • The miro.com domain landed ~48 hours before the event, after materials were printed — a leap of faith

“at Miro it was very much like Rebrand as a product approach it was a very much a product development process with Sprint teams and…”

Barbra Gago · 35:30

“we got our domain name change to miro.com I think it was like 48 hours before the event like all the material had been printed…”

Barbra Gago · 36:30
#rebranding#miro#process#execution

Tool· 1

Tool51:30

Barbra Gago's Book Recommendations

In the lightning round, Gago recommends Radical Candor (which they give out to customers for management and feedback best practices), The Art of War for strategic thinking, and — outside of work — Kafka on the Shore, one of her favorite Murakami novels.

  • Radical Candor — management and giving feedback; given out to customers
  • The Art of War — strategic thinking
  • Kafka on the Shore by Murakami — a personal favorite (non-work)

“definitely radical Candor we give this out to customers it's really good for management and best practices around giving feedback”

Barbra Gago · 51:30
#books#recommendations#management

Takeaway· 4

Takeaway08:30

The Factors That Decide Whether to Create a Category

Gago lays out the main inputs for deciding to invent a category: whether companies already have a budget for it, the language customers use to describe their pain points, and whether competition exists. At Miro the deciding factor was scope — they didn't want to be boxed into the small 'online whiteboard' category when the product could serve every company.

  • Key factors: existing customer budget, the words customers use, and whether competition exists
  • Companies had a budget for ATS but not for visual collaboration
  • Miro chose category creation because 'online whiteboard' was too small a box for the product's scope

“but I think the main factors when you're thinking about category creation is really what budget companies have if they have a budget”

Barbra Gago · 08:30
#category-creation#strategy#budget#miro
Takeaway19:30

When Creating a Category Is a Bad Idea

Gago says try category creation sooner rather than later, and skip it entirely if you're already well established — it won't magically generate new business. If you're not differentiated from other categories in your space, you probably belong in an existing one and category creation is a lot of wasted work. It's fine to try, fail, and sit back into the category.

  • Attempt category creation early; it's not a late-stage growth lever
  • If you're not differentiated, you're probably in an existing category already
  • Trying and abandoning a category is a valid outcome
  • When you truly fit no category, keep iterating with customer language until one makes sense

“if you really aren't differentiated from other categories in your space than you probably are in that category”

Barbra Gago · 20:30
#category-creation#strategy#differentiation
Takeaway24:00

New Categories Ride Market Inflection Points

Rather than a fixed percentage of companies that should create categories, Gago sees category creation clustering around technology inflection points — the early web wave, the social/consumerization-of-enterprise wave, and COVID's shift to distributed work. Deel and Oyster's employment platforms are her example of a category that grew fast off the remote-work inflection.

  • Category creation clusters around inflection points, not a fixed share of companies
  • Examples: the first web wave, consumerization of enterprise, COVID/distributed work
  • Deel and Oyster built a fast-growing employment-platform category off remote work
  • It's about what the market demands, not whether it suits one company

“so I feel like it's less about a raw percentage and more about General kind of inflection points that are happening that are causing the…”

Barbra Gago · 24:30
#category-creation#market-timing#trends
Takeaway26:00

Sell Into the Old Category While Building the New One

It isn't a binary choice between an established category and a brand-new one. With Pando, Gago sells into and categorizes under 'Performance Management' (where budget exists) while introducing 'employee progression' as a long-tail strategy. The investment to build a new category is high, so you work your way up to owning it over time rather than switching cold.

  • You can categorize under an established budget line while building a new category in parallel
  • Pando sells as Performance Management but seeds 'employee progression' as a long-tail play
  • Building a new category is a high investment, so shift gradually
  • Mirrors Miro: still the best whiteboard tool while building the visual-collaboration brand

“so it's not necessarily one or the other but I do say the investment is high if you want to build a new category”

Barbra Gago · 27:00
#category-creation#pando#positioning#strategy