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Raaz Herzberg (CMO and VP Product Strategy)17 November 2024

Building Wiz: the fastest-growing startup in history

7Frameworks
15Insights

Episode overview

Raaz Herzberg recounts how Wiz began with a vague network-security idea, recognized that polite customer interest was not genuine demand, and pivoted to cloud security. She explains that strong product-market-fit signals included pricing and procurement questions, introductions to implementation teams, and prospects completing demanding proof-of-value preparation. Drawing on her move from engineering and product into marketing, she discusses clear messaging, experimentation, founder trust, brand differentiation, and accepting possible failure while pursuing high-impact work.

Key ideas

  • Polite affirmation is weak evidence; genuine customer pull appears through pricing questions, procurement activity, implementation introductions, and committed proof-of-value work.
  • Saying “I don't understand” exposed that Wiz's original product story was too broad and triggered a five-hour discussion leading to its cloud-security pivot.
  • Founding teams should learn critical motions such as selling and messaging end to end before expecting a specialist hire to solve them.
  • As a startup scales, organizational “heat” can shift from product to engineering, then sales, and eventually marketing as awareness and pipeline become constraints.
  • Marketing experiments have little lasting maintenance cost compared with product features, so teams can test bold ideas and quickly discard failures.
  • Product and marketing teams must translate technical nuance into crystal-clear language that buyers and sellers outside the company's internal bubble understand.
  • CMO success depends heavily on trust with founders plus deep understanding of the product, customer, and market.
  • Imposter feelings need not disappear before action; people can accept the risk of failure and still give themselves the opportunity to succeed.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Entrepreneurship3 steps

Do It End-to-End Before You Hire For It

If the core team can't crack a function once, a new hire won't rescue it.

Read →
Mindset3 steps

Embrace the Imposter: Act Despite Expecting to Fail

Stop trying to feel confident; give yourself permission to fail and take the shot anyway.

Read →
Leadership3 steps

Follow the Heat

The company's pressure point moves stage by stage; staff it as it moves.

Read →
Marketing3 steps

Marketing's Reversibility Advantage: Try Everything, Make Noise

Product changes are near-permanent; marketing changes cost nothing, so experiment relentlessly.

Read →
Sales4 steps

Pull, Not Praise: Reading Real Product-Market Fit Signals

Judge customer calls by the questions they ask, not the compliments they give.

Read →
Marketing3 steps

The Dummy Explanation (Escape Your Bubble)

Write every message as if the reader knows nothing about you, your product, or your market.

Read →
Sales3 steps

The Friction Commitment Test

Deliberately make the next step hard to filter for buyers who truly want it.

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 9

  • Raaz HerzbergMentionsRos is Chief marketing officer and VP of product strategy at whiz

    “before moving into marketing Ros was an engineer and then for most of her career was a product manager”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter

    “today my guest is Ros herberg”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • Raaz HerzbergMentionsRos is Chief marketing officer and VP of product strategy at whiz

    “Ros is Chief marketing officer and VP of product strategy at whiz”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • Assaf RappaportMentionsAsaf our CEO at whz before whz he led the entire division of all the Microsoft cloud security products

    “Asaf our CEO at whz before whz he led the entire division of all the Microsoft cloud security products”

    ▶ Watch at ~8:30approx.
  • Tomer CohenCoinedChief product officer at LinkedIn overseeing teams responsible for LinkedIn products and experiences.

    “this reminds me of toor Cohen LinkedIn CPO has this really great phrase We may be wrong but we're not confused”

    ▶ Watch at ~17:00approx.
  • Yinon CosticaMentionsmyself Mo coming to whz was following Assaf and inan and the founding team

    “myself Mo coming to whz was following Assaf and inan and the founding team”

    ▶ Watch at ~24:30approx.
  • Gil GmanMentionsGil Gman engineering team lead at Fiverr

    “Gil Gman engineering team lead at Fiverr says that our users share billions of images video and audio files”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
  • Doug LeoneMentionswe have dou Leona

    “we have dou Leona we have like Jeff from Insight”

    ▶ Watch at ~31:00approx.
  • Danny MeyerCoinedthe founder of all these fancy restaurants and big on hospitality

    “probably setting the table by by Danny Mayer which is he owns Shake Shack”

    ▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.

Resources · 42

  • Azure SentinelMentionssoftware · Microsoft

    “prior to whiz Ros LED security products in Microsoft including Azure Sentinel”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • MicrosoftMentionscompany · Bill Gates and Paul Allen

    “prior to whiz Ros LED security products in Microsoft including Azure Sentinel”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • WizMentionscompany

    “It's not only the world's fastest growing security company it's also the fastest growing software company in history”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • GoogleMentionscompany · Google

    “was rumored to be exploring an acquisition by Google for over $23 billion”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • Lenny's PodcastMentionspodcast · Lenny Rachitsky

    “if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and followed in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
  • DeelMentionscompany

    “the two other companies I've had on the podcast that also claim to be the fastest growing software companies deal and ramp”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
  • RampMentionscompany · Eric Glyman and Karim Atiyeh

    “the two other companies I've had on the podcast that also claim to be the fastest growing software companies deal and ramp”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
  • LoomUsessoftware · Loom

    “hundreds of companies are already powered by work OS including ones you probably know like versel webflow and Loom”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • YouTubeMentionswebsite · Google

    “originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • Google DocsMentionssoftware · Google

    “originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • ZanzibarMentionssoftware · Google

    “warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar which was originally designed for Google”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • VercelUsescompany · Guillermo Rauch

    “hundreds of companies are already powered by work OS including ones you probably know like versel webflow and Loom”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • WebflowUsessoftware · Webflow

    “hundreds of companies are already powered by work OS including ones you probably know like versel webflow and Loom”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • WarrantMentionssoftware · Warrant

    “work OS also recently acquired warrant the fine grain authorization service”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:30approx.
  • Auth0Mentionssoftware · Okta

    “it's a drop-in replacement for azero and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • WorkOSRecommendscompany · WorkOS, Inc.

    “you should consider work OS it's a drop-in replacement for azero and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • ElemyUsescompany

    “many startups I've invested in like sprig elmy and Class Dojo use Rippling”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
  • ClassDojoUsescompany · ClassDojo

    “many startups I've invested in like sprig elmy and Class Dojo use Rippling”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
  • RipplingRecommendscompany · Parker Conrad

    “many startups I've invested in like sprig elmy and Class Dojo use Rippling because it's a force multiplier for lean teams”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
  • SprigUsessoftware · Sprig

    “many startups I've invested in like sprig elmy and Class Dojo use Rippling”

    ▶ Watch at ~6:00approx.
  • Beyond NetworksMentionscompany

    “it wasn't even whiz the company was literally officially founded as Beyond networks”

    ▶ Watch at ~7:30approx.
  • Tel AvivMentionsplace

    “we started originally based in Tel Aviv so we couldn't even fly”

    ▶ Watch at ~12:00approx.
  • LinkedInMentionswebsite · LinkedIn

    “this reminds me of toor Cohen LinkedIn CPO”

    ▶ Watch at ~17:00approx.
  • iPhoneUsesproduct · Apple

    “when I buy my iPhone I have no idea how it really is compared to an Android phone”

    ▶ Watch at ~27:30approx.
  • AndroidMentionssoftware · Google

    “when I buy my iPhone I have no idea how it really is compared to an Android phone”

    ▶ Watch at ~27:30approx.
  • CloudinaryMentionscompany

    “Cloud Nary is the API first image and video management platform built for product leaders who rely on visual storytelling”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
  • FiverrUsescompany

    “Gil Gman engineering team lead at Fiverr says that our users share billions of images video and audio files”

    ▶ Watch at ~29:30approx.
  • Index VenturesMentionscompany

    “he's a partner at index Ventures”

    ▶ Watch at ~30:00approx.
  • RSA ConferenceMentionsevent

    “RSA is like the Super Ball of security companies so it's where every vendors come to kind of showcase”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:00approx.
  • The Wizard of OzMentionsfilm

    “I decided to say okay let's scrap our booth and do a whiz of Oz Booth”

    ▶ Watch at ~38:30approx.
  • WizUsescompany

    “inside whz we have the whiz graph database for security”

    ▶ Watch at ~49:00approx.
  • MicrosoftMentionscompany · Bill Gates and Paul Allen

    “before whiz they founded adalon which sold to Microsoft that's how they all ended up in Microsoft”

    ▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
  • AdallomCoinedcompany

    “before whiz they founded adalon which sold to Microsoft”

    ▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
  • Shake ShackMentionscompany · Danny Meyer

    “setting the table by by Danny Mayer which is he owns Shake Shack”

    ▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
  • New YorkMentionsplace

    “a chain of of really great restaurants in New York”

    ▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.
  • NetflixMentionscompany · Netflix

    “Netflix has a super unique culture and story”

    ▶ Watch at ~58:00approx.
  • GongRecommendssoftware · Gong

    “I think gong did does like an amazing job in marketing for a B2B product”

    ▶ Watch at ~59:00approx.
  • The WireRecommendstv show · David Simon

    “I think the wire is the best like show ever created”

    ▶ Watch at ~59:30approx.
  • LinkedInMentionswebsite · LinkedIn

    “find me on LinkedIn”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:04:30approx.
  • Apple PodcastsMentionssoftware · Apple Inc.

    “you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
  • SpotifyMentionssoftware · Spotify

    “you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.
  • LennyPodcast.comMentionswebsite · Lenny Rachitsky

    “you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenp podcast.com”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:05:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 4

Hot Take15:00

Why 'I Don't Understand' Became Raaz's Favorite Question

For weeks Raaz sat on every customer call and still didn't understand what Wiz was building, assuming she was the only confused one. When she finally admitted it, it turned out no one fully understood, and that admission opened the five-hour discussion that led to the pivot. She credits Wiz's flat, ego-free culture for making it safe to say 'I don't understand.'

  • It takes real courage to admit you don't understand, especially as the expert in the room
  • Everyone assumed clarity existed; nobody actually had it
  • Saying 'I don't understand' became her favorite question over her career
  • A flat culture where voices are heard regardless of title makes this possible

“it's hard to get the courage to say actually I don't understand but I think by now in my care it's like my favorite question”

Raaz Herzberg · 15:30
#leadership#culture#communication
Hot Take21:00

If the Founding Team Can't Do It, Don't Expect a Hire To

Wiz sold several million in ARR before hiring its first salesperson, with the founders closing contracts themselves. Raaz argues that if the core team can't do something end-to-end, hiring an outsider to solve it is usually wishful thinking. Doing it yourself first also gives you the confidence and proof to hand a new hire.

  • The founders closed a couple million in ARR before their first sales hire
  • Doing sales themselves taught them the process end-to-end
  • If the core team can't do it once, an outside hire rarely fixes it
  • Selling it yourself first gives your first salesperson proof and confidence

“if you can't do it one time and to end then you like the core core Core Group the chances of just bringing somebody from…”

Raaz Herzberg · 22:30
#startups#hiring#b2b-sales#founders
Hot Take34:00

Why CMOs Fail: Marketing Is Visible and Trust Breaks Easily

Raaz argues the CMO role is uniquely hard because everything marketing does is public and touches something founders care about deeply. Trust with the founding team is hard to build and easy to break, one off-brand ad can do it. She also thinks a CMO needs deep, native understanding of the product and market, which is hard to gain from outside.

  • Everything in marketing is highly visible to founders and the world
  • One bad ad the founders reject can break hard-won trust instantly
  • A CMO needs deep connection to both the product and the market
  • Coming from outside the founding team and outside a technical market is a double challenge

“like one bad ad or something that one of the founding team will say like oh this is not us this is like not what…”

Raaz Herzberg · 34:30
#marketing#leadership#trust#cmo
Hot Take53:30

Embrace Imposter Syndrome Instead of Trying to Build Confidence

Raaz's contrarian take on the standard 'build your confidence' advice given to women in tech: she can't manufacture confidence and does feel like an imposter, so she just embraces it. Rather than letting the feeling stop a decision, she lets people 'find her out' if they will, and applies for the role or takes the shot anyway. You never learn your limit if you don't try.

  • She rejects the standard advice to fight imposter syndrome by building confidence
  • Everyone feels like an imposter, so embrace it instead
  • Don't let the feeling stop you from making a decision or taking the shot
  • You'll never know your limit if you don't try

“maybe embrace it but don't let that um stop you from from making a decision like maybe they will find out your random poster maybe…”

Raaz Herzberg · 54:30
#mindset#career#confidence#women-in-tech

Explainer· 2

Explainer28:00

The 'Heat' Metaphor: Where the Pressure Moves as a Company Grows

Raaz describes company-building as heat moving through the org over time. It starts in the product kitchen (figure out what to build), shifts to engineering (build it), then to sales (go sell it), then to marketing (nobody's heard of us, give us pipeline). She sees the best people naturally getting placed wherever the heat and the biggest bottleneck currently are.

  • Early on the heat is in product: figuring out what people want
  • It moves to engineering to build, then to sales to sell the first deals
  • Then heat moves to marketing when sales demands more pipeline and awareness
  • Leadership puts the best people where the company needs the most help

“in the early early days when we just started whiz I remember I felt like the heat was in the product kitchen”

Raaz Herzberg · 28:00
#scaling#leadership#org-design#marketing
Explainer45:00

The Bubble and the 'Dummy Explanation': Stop Assuming Customers Know Your Jargon

Raaz warns that living inside your own company creates a bubble where you assume the market knows your terminology. Wiz's team called the category 'CNAP,' but customers were Googling 'cloud security solution.' Her fix is the 'dummy explanation': write everything so any outsider understands it, and remember you're the only one sick of your own website copy, customers are just now learning it.

  • Insiders use internal terms like CNAP while buyers search 'cloud security solution'
  • The 'dummy explanation' means assuming no knowledge of your company, product, or market
  • Drop internal jargon like 'the Wiz graph database' that a common person wouldn't know
  • You're the only one tired of your messaging; customers are still just grasping it

“if you go over and you like look at Google like people are not Googling that word they're Googling like Cloud security solution”

Raaz Herzberg · 48:00

“you the only one that is sick of it right your customers are just learning what you put there like 10 months ago”

Raaz Herzberg · 50:30
#marketing#messaging#positioning#communication

Story· 3

Story11:30

Why Founding Wiz During the COVID Lockdown Was a Hidden Advantage

Wiz was founded in March 2020 just as the world shut down, and even Raaz's mom told her it was a bad time to join a startup. But because everyone was suddenly home with no meetings or travel, normally-busy CISOs were available for back-to-back calls. The team ran 10-15 discovery calls a day, which is how they rapidly learned what wasn't working.

  • Wiz was founded the same month the world locked down for COVID
  • Lockdown meant busy security buyers were home and available for calls
  • The team ran 10-15 back-to-back customer calls per day
  • High call volume is how you quickly find what isn't working and what is

“even my mom was like calling me and telling me this is not a good time to join a startup but it ended up being…”

Raaz Herzberg · 12:00
#customer-discovery#startups#founding-story
Story19:00

The Scary Questionnaire That Proved a Customer Actually Wanted It

Facing an early POV with a Fortune 10 company before the product was ready, Raaz sent a long list of technical questions partly to buy time, terrified it would scare the customer off. It came back fully filled out a day later. The lesson: friction filters for real commitment, and you should look for pull from the customer rather than pushing.

  • A long, annoying prerequisite questionnaire tests whether the buyer is truly committed
  • The Fortune 10 prospect returned the filled-out list the next day
  • You want the customer's pull, not to push someone into a POV
  • Commitment from the buyer matters because early adoption is a shared journey

“I want to make sure they're committed right I don't want to push somebody into a POV if he is not committed to me at…”

Raaz Herzberg · 20:00

“don't be too afraid to um get the pull from the customer like it's okay like you need that pull from the other end as…”

Raaz Herzberg · 20:30
#b2b-sales#product-market-fit#customer-discovery
Story38:00

The Wizard of Oz Booth That Got 5x the Traffic at RSA

For Wiz's first RSA (the 'Super Bowl of security'), Raaz scrapped the standard dark, scary cyber booth and built a Wizard of Oz booth with actors like Dorothy, going bright, pink, optimistic and magic-themed. Terrified it would flop, she instead drew five times the foot traffic of the prior year in the same space, and themed booths became a Wiz signature others now copy.

  • RSA is the biggest security industry conference where all buyers gather
  • She replaced a classic cyber booth with a bright, optimistic Wizard of Oz theme
  • Same booth space and investment drew 5x the visitors of the previous year
  • Themed booths became a recurring Wiz tactic that competitors now imitate

“let's scrap our booth and do a whiz of Oz Booth which literally looked like a wiz of osoth”

Raaz Herzberg · 38:30

“the amount of people that stopped by your booth was like um five times the amount of people that stopped by the year before”

Raaz Herzberg · 40:00
#marketing#branding#events#differentiation

Tool· 1

Tool56:30

Raaz Herzberg's Book Recommendations: Setting the Table and No Rules Rules

Raaz recommends 'Setting the Table' by Danny Meyer (Shake Shack) for its customer-obsession and hospitality lessons that transfer well to tech and SaaS. Her second pick, read by the whole Wiz founding team, is 'No Rules Rules' by Netflix co-founder Reed Hastings, which she values for its lessons on building a strong culture capable of dramatic pivots.

  • 'Setting the Table' by Danny Meyer: customer obsession and hospitality applied beyond restaurants
  • Shake Shack optimizes for you to sit down, unlike most chains
  • 'No Rules Rules' by Reed Hastings, read by the whole Wiz founding team
  • Netflix's culture enabled radical pivots from mailing DVDs to production studios

“one of my most favorite business books in read like a lot of them is um probably setting the table by by Danny Mayer”

Raaz Herzberg · 56:30
#books#culture#leadership#recommendations

Takeaway· 5

Takeaway10:30

How Wiz Knew Its First Idea Wasn't Working: Politeness Isn't a Signal

Wiz started as a network-security company called Beyond Networks, running 10-15 customer calls a day where prospects kept saying 'sounds interesting, would love to hear more.' Raaz realized those warm-but-vague responses were affirmation, not enthusiasm, and that the team was listening for reinforcement instead of real demand. Recognizing the difference is what pushed them to pivot to cloud security.

  • Prospects who say 'interesting, tell me more' are often just being polite to a smart-seeming team
  • Humans are biased toward seeking affirmation rather than hearing what they don't want to hear
  • The team was looking for positive reinforcement, not signs of deep enthusiasm
  • Reframing what a good signal looks like triggered the pivot to cloud security

“we were looking for like positive reinforcements but not really listening intently to like signs of deep enthusiasm”

Raaz Herzberg · 11:00

“I think naturally as human beings you want to get affirmation from the other side so you're actually you have a bias to look for…”

Raaz Herzberg · 13:30
#product-market-fit#customer-discovery#startups#pivot
Takeaway13:00

What Real Product-Market Fit Actually Sounds Like on a Call

Once Wiz landed on cloud security, the type of questions on calls changed. Instead of vague enthusiasm, prospects asked about pricing, when they could issue a purchase order, and who to connect the team to internally. Raaz learned to look for that active pull toward the next step as the true signal of demand.

  • Weak signal: 'sounds interesting, please update me'
  • Strong signal: 'how are you pricing this?' and 'when can we start a PO?'
  • A prospect volunteering to connect you to their internal team is a strong buy signal
  • Look for the customer pushing toward the next step, not just praise

“suddenly the call sounded like wait again how are you pricing this how much will this cost or wait like when can we start doing…”

Raaz Herzberg · 13:00
#product-market-fit#b2b-sales#customer-discovery
Takeaway24:30

Why Brand Matters Even for the Most Technical B2B Buyers

Two and a half years in, Wiz had clear product-market fit but kept losing deals to competitors customers had simply heard of first. Raaz took on marketing convinced that awareness and brand were the next scaling bottleneck. Her point: even technical B2B buyers are still people who buy on brand, the same way most people buy an iPhone without reading the specs.

  • Wiz would win any head-to-head POV but lost deals where buyers never heard of them
  • Awareness became the scaling bottleneck after product-market fit and sales
  • People buy an iPhone on brand, not by comparing specs to Android
  • Even the most complex B2B products are bought by people, so brand matters

“when I buy my iPhone I have no idea how it really is compared to an Android phone I did not look at the specs…”

Raaz Herzberg · 27:30

“B2B products even the most complex products people are still people they still buy it because brand matters a lot”

Raaz Herzberg · 27:30
#marketing#branding#b2b#scaling
Takeaway36:30

Marketing Is the Opposite of Product: There's No Cost to Trying

As a PM, Raaz believed less is more because every feature carries permanent engineering cost and complexity you can rarely take back. Marketing, she realized, is the opposite: a video that flops costs nothing and is forgotten by tomorrow. That freed her to try everything and make noise, treating low downside as an advantage.

  • In product, every added feature has huge permanent cost and can't be taken back
  • In marketing, a failed post has no maintenance and no lasting cost
  • Low downside means you can experiment aggressively
  • Her strategy was simply to try everything and make noise

“if tomorrow I post a video on Wizz LinkedIn page and I think that video is super funny and nobody likes that video nothing happened…”

Raaz Herzberg · 37:30
#marketing#product-management#experimentation
Takeaway40:30

Being Okay With Failing: Why Friction Is Good

Raaz says she's taken almost every role, including joining Wiz and moving to marketing, convinced she'd probably fail, and did it anyway. She traces the mindset to her mother, who pushed her into the areas she was weakest rather than doubling down on her strengths, believing friction and hard work beat talent. Giving yourself permission to fail is what she finds empowering.

  • She's attempted most of her career moves expecting to fail
  • Her mother pushed her toward weaknesses, not strengths
  • The 'friction is good' idea: like brushing where your gums bleed, push harder there
  • Hard work and courage beat talent, which only gets you so far

“I'm kind of okay with being pretty sure I'm going to fail at something and still attempting it”

Raaz Herzberg · 41:00

“if you brush your teeth and there's like a bit of blood somewhere then you need to brush harder there it's kind of like that…”

Raaz Herzberg · 43:30
#mindset#failure#career#personal-growth