Vikrama Dhiman (Gojek)12 May 2024

A framework for PM skill development

4Frameworks

15Insights

Episode overview

Gojek product leader Vikrama Dhiman presents his “three Ws” career-growth framework: what you produce, what you bring to the table, and your operating model. He argues that early-career PMs should master concrete outputs while continuing to build high-quality artifacts, cross-functional influence, and decision-making skills as they advance. The conversation also examines stalled growth, emphasizing controllable actions, openness to change, honest self-assessment, and focused skill development.

Key ideas

The three Ws assess what a PM produces, what they bring to the table, and how they operate with others.
Early-career PMs should prioritize tangible, useful outputs and retain hands-on execution skills as they become more senior.
PMs demonstrate their impact through high-quality artifacts such as PRDs, product notes, strategy documents, metrics, and planning materials.
A strong operating model raises difficult issues constructively, surfaces important topics without self-promotion, and gets decisions made collaboratively.
Career growth stalls when PMs fixate on things outside their control, resist change, or adopt limiting stories about their own identity.
PMs should benchmark themselves against excellent practitioners and improve one high-leverage skill area at a time.
Product management connects data, design and research, technology, and strategy while also requiring communication, collaboration, organizational, and community skills.
Intent alone is insufficient: actions, behavior, communication, sustained effort, and adaptability determine how a PM contributes.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Self-Mastery3 steps

The Complementary-Axis PM Skill Development Framework

Level up (or transition into) PM by picking the skill axis opposite your background, then strategy

Read →

Mindset3 steps

The Three Mindset Shifts That Stall or Restart PM Growth

Fix the three stories — control, change, and self-image — that quietly stall product careers

Read →

Communication3 steps

The Three Tenets of PM Stakeholder Collaboration

A mantra for working with stakeholders: surface issues, not yourself; drive decisions, don't hoard them

Read →

Leadership3 steps

The Three Ws of PM Career Growth

Rise faster by performing on all three axes: what you produce, what you bring, and how you operate

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 7

Vikrama DhimanMentionsVikrama heads all things product at Gojek, including product management, design, program management, research, and insights
“Today my guest is Vikrama Dhiman.”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Lenny RachitskyMentionstoday we've got another very special compilation episode something I've been pulling on more and more with the podcast and the newsletter
“Thank you for inviting me, Lenny.”
▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
Crystal WidjajaMentionswho's a long time Chief product officer at gojek she's currently Chief product officer at kumu
“when I joined Gojek, and I saw one of your guests, Crystal”
▶ Watch at ~34:00approx.
Jules WalterMentionsJules is a product leader at YouTube. Before that, he spent 4 and 1/2 years at Slack, where he was their first growth PM
“I have a great interview with Jules Walter who's a PM at Google now.”
▶ Watch at ~39:30approx.
Crystal WidjajaMentionswho's a long time Chief product officer at gojek she's currently Chief product officer at kumu
“she was a head of early head of growth at Gojek back in the day”
▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
Martin LindstromMentionsa person who was an advertiser, a marketer who would go and make campaigns for big brands in different countries
“a book called Small Data by Martin Lindstrom”
▶ Watch at ~1:00:00approx.
Daniel KahnemanMentionshis influence was so huge you know and his intellect was so huge and his Insight was was so change making
“the third book that I'll recommend is definitely Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.

Resources · 34

GojekMentionscompany · Kevin Aluwi and co-founders
“Vikrama heads all things product at Gojek”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
MakeMyTripMentionscompany
“He's previously worked at companies like Directi, Airtel, MakeMyTrip”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
DirectiMentionscompany
“He's previously worked at companies like Directi, Airtel, MakeMyTrip”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
AirtelMentionscompany
“He's previously worked at companies like Directi, Airtel, MakeMyTrip”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
UizardUsessoftware
“With Wizard, I can simply upload my screenshot, and Wizard's AI will turn them into a fully editable UI design”
▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
ReactMentionssoftware · Meta
“Developers can even export UI components to React and CSS”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
WebflowMentionssoftware · Webflow
“This episode is brought to you by Webflow.”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
IDEOMentionscompany
“Learn how teams like Dropbox, IDEO, and Orangetheory trust Webflow”
▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
DropboxMentionscompany · Drew Houston and Arash Ferdowsi
“Learn how teams like Dropbox, IDEO, and Orangetheory trust Webflow”
▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
OrangetheoryMentionscompany
“Learn how teams like Dropbox, IDEO, and Orangetheory trust Webflow”
▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
JiraMentionssoftware · Atlassian
“You will find that the Jira story boards are very empty”
▶ Watch at ~18:30approx.
SQLUsessoftware
“The very first thing that I learned in my career was SQL and Oracle.”
▶ Watch at ~34:00approx.
OracleUsescompany · Oracle Corporation
“The very first thing that I learned in my career was SQL and Oracle.”
▶ Watch at ~34:00approx.
GoogleMentionscompany · Google
“Jules Walter who's a PM at Google now”
▶ Watch at ~39:30approx.
CodaUsessoftware · Coda
“I use Coda every day to help me plan each episode of this very podcast.”
▶ Watch at ~45:00approx.
PinterestMentionscompany · Pinterest
“product teams at high-growth companies like Pinterest, Figma, and Qualtrics run on Coda”
▶ Watch at ~46:00approx.
FigmaMentionssoftware · Figma
“product teams at high-growth companies like Pinterest, Figma, and Qualtrics run on Coda”
▶ Watch at ~46:00approx.
QualtricsMentionssoftware
“product teams at high-growth companies like Pinterest, Figma, and Qualtrics run on Coda”
▶ Watch at ~46:00approx.
Small DataRecommendsbook · Martin Lindstrom
“I can't recommend that book more and I've cited that book a lot internally.”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:00approx.
Thinking, Fast and SlowRecommendsbook · Daniel Kahneman
“the third book that I'll recommend is definitely Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow”
▶ Watch at ~1:01:30approx.
Miss CongenialityRecommendsfilm
“I saw Miss Congeniality again and I really really enjoyed it.”
▶ Watch at ~1:02:30approx.
Schitt's CreekRecommendstv show
“the show that I really go back to all the time is Schitt's Creek”
▶ Watch at ~1:03:30approx.
InstagramUsessoftware · Meta
“I've discovered these short video apps to Instagram”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:00approx.
TikTokMentionssoftware · ByteDance
“they are delivered in TikTok style 2-minute videos”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:30approx.
NetflixMentionscompany · Netflix
“one series takes more than the entire cost of monthly cost of Netflix to view”
▶ Watch at ~1:06:30approx.
DramaBoxRecommendssoftware
“you can start with Drama Box, you can start with Short Reels”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:30approx.
Short ReelsRecommendssoftware
“you can start with Drama Box, you can start with Short Reels”
▶ Watch at ~1:07:30approx.
SingaporeMentionsplace
“you live in Singapore”
▶ Watch at ~1:09:30approx.
Crazy Rich AsiansMentionsfilm
“those of you who've seen Crazy Rich Asians, the first thing they do when they land in Singapore”
▶ Watch at ~1:10:00approx.
Lau Pa SatRecommendsplace
“if you are looking for a specific recommendation, go to Lau Pa Sat”
▶ Watch at ~1:10:00approx.
LinkedInUseswebsite · LinkedIn
“You can reach out to me either on LinkedIn”
▶ Watch at ~1:11:00approx.
Apple PodcastsMentionssoftware · Apple Inc.
“you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app”
▶ Watch at ~1:12:00approx.
SpotifyMentionssoftware · Spotify
“you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app”
▶ Watch at ~1:12:00approx.
Lenny's Podcast websiteMentionswebsite · Lenny Rachitsky
“You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.”
▶ Watch at ~1:12:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take19:30

Three tenets for PMs working with stakeholders

Vikrama offers a mantra for how PMs should operate with other stakeholders across any level of seniority. The three tenets are: raise difficult issues without being difficult to work with, bring out important topics without drawing importance to yourself, and get decisions made without making all the decisions yourself. He notes they are easy to say but hard to embody day to day.

Raise difficult issues without being difficult to work with
Bring out important topics without drawing importance to yourself
Be in charge of getting decisions made, not making them all yourself
These stay hard to embody at every level of the PM career

“Number one is raise difficult issues without being difficult to work with. Bring out important topics without drawing importance to yourself. And finally, you are…”
Vikrama Dhiman · 19:30

#collaboration#stakeholders#leadership#product-management

Hot Take57:00

Contrarian: intent isn't enough, and hours still matter

In the contrarian corner, Vikrama shares two beliefs he has to keep defending. First, he used to think good intent was the most important thing, but he's since concluded intent alone isn't enough — your actions, behavior, and communication have to show who you are. Second, he insists you still need to put in the effort and the hours to grow, a stance he says has become politically incorrect to voice.

Good intent alone is not enough — behavior and communication must match
Younger PMs grasp this faster than his own age group
Real growth still requires effort and hours
Saying 'hours matter' has become politically incorrect

“So, intent is not enough.”
Vikrama Dhiman · 57:30

“you still need to put in the effort, and a number of hours is effort. And I think that's one thing which has become very…”
Vikrama Dhiman · 58:00

#contrarian#work-ethic#growth#product-management

Explainer· 2

Explainer27:30

Three mindset shifts that stall a PM's career

Vikrama identifies three mindset changes that can either enable or hinder growth. First, whether you focus on what you control versus what's beyond it — mid-senior PMs often drift into blaming the org and stakeholders. Second, your relationship with change: keep raising your rate of skill change or growth slows. Third, and most powerful, how you see yourself and the stories you tell about who you are.

Focus on what you control, not on things beyond your control
Mid-senior PMs shift from 'how am I growing?' to 'why won't the org change?'
Keep your rate of change high and rate of growth follows
How you see yourself is the most powerful and hardest lever to fix

“So, the first thing is whether you're focusing on things you control or whether you're focusing on things that are beyond your control. Second, what's…”
Vikrama Dhiman · 27:30

#career-growth#mindset#self-awareness#product-management

Explainer49:30

The PM is the only discipline that pairs with everyone

Vikrama reframes the confusing PM role: picture strategy, technology, design, and data as four circles, with product management as the circle that encircles all of them. The PM is the only discipline that is the core collaborator for every other discipline, which is why they hold a unique cross-cutting insight no one else has. The role can be played by others, but whoever holds it must raise the team's overall output, not lower it.

PM is the circle encircling strategy, tech, design, and data
It's the only discipline pairing with every other discipline
That cross-cutting position creates unique insight
Whoever plays the role must raise the team's overall output

“so you are the only discipline which is the core collaborator for all of these disciplines and tying all these things out.”
Vikrama Dhiman · 49:30

#product-management#role-clarity#collaboration

Story· 2

Story12:00

Why the PM on the hot product area didn't get to lead it

Vikrama recounts a role where his product area became the organization's center of focus, yet a different PM was chosen to lead it once it grew. Looking back, he realized that colleague was simply better at the craft of output: launching products, producing design artifacts, and running experiments. The lesson is that owning an impactful area doesn't guarantee growth if your execution craft lags.

His product area became the org's center of focus, but he wasn't chosen to lead it
The chosen PM was better at the overall craft of output
That PM never dropped output skill even while moving to outcomes
Being on an impactful product area is not enough on its own

“My product area ended up being the center and focus of the organization. Yet, the product manager who was chosen to lead the area when…”
Vikrama Dhiman · 12:00

#career-growth#product-management#execution#craft

Story34:00

Joining Gojek humbled him into a 'mindful-agency' PM

Vikrama shares how joining Gojek shattered his self-image. Proud of his data skills, he saw the work of colleague Crystal and realized he was nowhere near her level; working with peers like Dito and Sidhu did the same for strategy and communication. Rather than despair, he reframed himself as a permanent learner and, after working in Southeast Asia, swapped his 'high-agency' identity for a 'mindful-agency' one.

Seeing Crystal's data work made him admit he was 'nowhere near'
Peers challenged his self-assessed strategy and communication skills
He reframed his self-story as an enabling 'learner' identity
He replaced 'high-agency PM' with 'mindful-agency PM' after Southeast Asia

“And I also found that, you know, seeing yourself as someone who's a learner is a is an enabling story to tell yourself.”
Vikrama Dhiman · 35:30

“I don't want to be a high-agency person. I want a mindful-agency person.”
Vikrama Dhiman · 36:30

#self-awareness#growth#identity#product-management

Q&A· 1

Q&A1:04:00

His favorite PM interview technique

Asked about hiring, Vikrama says he doesn't rely on one question but instead brainstorms product choices on a real product the candidate uses most, deliberately picking one he has no strong opinions on so it becomes a two-way conversation. He probes how the product might evolve in 6 or 12 months. What he looks for is whether the candidate can abstract out the product's goals and users and reason backward, rather than fixating on a single feature.

He brainstorms real product choices rather than asking one set question
He picks a product he has no strong opinions on for a two-way conversation
Good answers abstract out goals and users, then reason backward
Red flag: obsessing over a feature instead of what it enables

“There are some obvious check marks that are they able to first abstract out and figure out what the overall goals for the product are,…”
Vikrama Dhiman · 1:05:00

#hiring#interviewing#product-management

Tool· 2

Tool1:00:00

Three books Vikrama recommends most to PMs

In the lightning round, Vikrama names three books. Small Data by Martin Lindstrom, which he feels is under-quoted in the PM community, for its lessons on getting fast insights. Adam Grant's Originals, which helped him through his early Gojek crisis and offers a reality check for people who think they're superstars. And Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow, especially the 'thinking slow' part that helps you welcome change and feedback.

Small Data by Martin Lindstrom — fast insight-gathering, under-cited in PM
Originals by Adam Grant — reality check, helped his own growth crisis
Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman — 'thinking slow' aids change
Thinking slow is why change and feedback are hard but valuable

“The first book is a book which I feel is not quoted enough in product management community is a book called small data by Martin…”
Vikrama Dhiman · 1:00:00

#books#recommendations#learning

Tool1:06:00

The short-drama apps he calls a product masterstroke

Vikrama's recently discovered favorite product is a category of short-video apps like Drama Box and Short Reels that dub or subtitle Chinese TV serials into English, delivered in TikTok-style two-minute episodes. He praises the product construction: the first ten episodes hook you into unlocking the next batch, and a single series can cost more than a month of Netflix. Two- or three-person companies churn these out profitably using off-the-shelf tools.

Apps like Drama Box and Short Reels dub Chinese serials into 2-minute episodes
The first ~10 episodes are engineered to make you unlock the next batch
One series can cost more than a monthly Netflix subscription
Tiny 2-3 person companies build these profitably with off-the-shelf tools

“one series takes more than the entire cost of monthly cost of Netflix to view”
Vikrama Dhiman · 1:07:00

“So, you can start with Drama Box, you can start with Short Reels and so on”
Vikrama Dhiman · 1:07:30

#apps#product-design#monetization#recommendations

Takeaway· 6

Takeaway15:30

Working on an impactful product doesn't guarantee your growth

Vikrama argues that a successful product area does not automatically translate into your own career growth. You have to demonstrate that you personally contributed to that impact, and the evidence is your artifacts: PRDs, product notes, strategy docs, and design briefs. When PMs complain their impactful work isn't advancing their careers, he asks to see those artifacts and usually finds something missing.

You need 'impact on impact' — proof you contributed, not just proximity to a good product
Artifacts (PRD, product notes, strategy docs, briefs) are how you demonstrate it
Even mid-senior PMs should still produce these artifacts themselves
Missing or thin artifacts (empty Jira boards, no PRD) reveal the gap

“So, the first axis is impact, but you also need to have an impact on impact.”
Vikrama Dhiman · 15:30

“Can you show me your last PRD? Can you show me the last product note that you sent? Can you show me the product strategy…”
Vikrama Dhiman · 18:00

#career-growth#artifacts#prd#product-management

Takeaway25:30

How to push back without being difficult to work with

Vikrama's advice for effective pushback is to move a conversation from an emotional space to a more logical one. Emotional energy has its place — a war cry, high urgency, execution on war footing — but only in some cases. PMs and leaders who can bring the tempo down to a logical, more equal footing tend to have faster career growth.

Effective pushers-back shift conversations from emotional to logical space
Emotional intensity is useful only in select cases
A logical footing creates a more equal discussion
This tempo-lowering skill correlates with rapid career growth

“they are also able to bring the tempo of the conversation to a more logical space from an emotional space.”
Vikrama Dhiman · 25:30

#communication#pushback#influence#product-management

Takeaway31:00

Benchmark against the industry's best, not just your org

To keep your rate of change high, Vikrama recommends re-benchmarking yourself against the best in the industry rather than the best in your own organization. If you rate yourself a four-out-of-five on data within your company, comparing to industry leaders makes that score drop — and the drop reveals exactly what to improve. The same works for communication and collaboration by mapping yourself against other functions.

Being a 4/5 inside your org can mask real gaps
Benchmarking against industry best makes your self-score fall
The lower score surfaces concrete areas to improve
Changing team or company should be a last resort, not the first move

“start benchmarking yourself with the best in the industry. You'll automatically see that your scale drops.”
Vikrama Dhiman · 31:00

#skill-development#benchmarking#career-growth#product-management

Takeaway39:00

Don't improve everything — pick the max-leverage skill

Facing endless areas to improve, Vikrama says trying to level up on data, design, strategy, and technology all at once is what overwhelms people. Instead, pick the single area with maximum leverage, improve it, then move to the next. If you're actively floundering or negative in something, fix that first because it gives the highest leverage.

You can't improve every area at once — that's what overwhelms you
Pick the single maximum-leverage area, then sequence the rest
Fix anything you're clearly failing at first
Feedback should be triaged into whether it's a growth area you're targeting

“You need to pick which is the area which is the maximum leverage for you and improve on that particular aspect, and then move on…”
Vikrama Dhiman · 39:00

#skill-development#focus#feedback#product-management

Takeaway41:00

Which two skills to pick when transitioning into PM

For people moving into product management, Vikrama recommends deliberately building the skills you lack. If you come from a design or research background, pick data or tech; if you come from data or tech, pick design and research. This targets the highest leverage because it forces development of a skill you'd otherwise never have built, with strategy tackled last once you've demonstrated two of the three.

Pick between data and tech, plus one of design/research early on
Design/research background → build data or tech
Data/tech background → build design and research
Only move to strategy after demonstrating two of the three

“My advice is if you're coming from design and research background, then you pick data or tech. If you're coming from a data or tech…”
Vikrama Dhiman · 41:00

#career-transition#skill-development#product-management

Takeaway1:08:30

It's never too late to become what you want

Vikrama's life motto comes from his own late start: he entered tech at 25, worked years in a tier-two Indian town, moved to Delhi only in 2013, and joined Gojek in 2018 — yet has done well for himself. His belief is that it is never too late to do or be what you want, advice he thinks matters more as the world ages and people worry about starting late.

He started in tech at 25 and rose from a tier-two town
Moved to Delhi in 2013, joined Gojek in 2018
It's never too late to do or be what you want
Especially relevant as the world ages and people fear a late start

“it's not too late ever. You can be and do what you want right now.”
Vikrama Dhiman · 1:09:00

#motivation#career#mindset

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

The Complementary-Axis PM Skill Development Framework

The Three Mindset Shifts That Stall or Restart PM Growth

The Three Tenets of PM Stakeholder Collaboration

The Three Ws of PM Career Growth

People & resources mentioned

People · 7

Resources · 34

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 2

Three tenets for PMs working with stakeholders

Contrarian: intent isn't enough, and hours still matter

✶Explainer· 2

Three mindset shifts that stall a PM's career

The PM is the only discipline that pairs with everyone

❝Story· 2

Why the PM on the hot product area didn't get to lead it

Joining Gojek humbled him into a 'mindful-agency' PM

?Q&A· 1

His favorite PM interview technique

✦Tool· 2

Three books Vikrama recommends most to PMs

The short-drama apps he calls a product masterstroke

▲Takeaway· 6

Working on an impactful product doesn't guarantee your growth

How to push back without being difficult to work with

Benchmark against the industry's best, not just your org

Don't improve everything — pick the max-leverage skill

Which two skills to pick when transitioning into PM

It's never too late to become what you want

Hot Take· 2

Explainer· 2

Story· 2

Q&A· 1

Tool· 2

Takeaway· 6